Silvija Seres: Hello and welcome to Lørn. My name is Silvija Seres and this podcast is in collaboration with Telenor. Today’s topic is network and architecture. My guest is Terje Jensen, senior vice president and head of network architecture at Telenor. Welcome.

Terje Jensen: Thank you.

Silvija: I know you and your team are doing amazing things on networks and IOT. Basically the huge critical infrastructure. But firstly, who are you?

Terje: We can go 40 years back. I’ve been working for more than 30 years for the company. I was recruited when I studied at university. Started in operations which are rather hands-on in Norway. I Traveled around in northern Norway in the late 80s. Implementing networks. Installation, testing, calling customers, checking if it’s working or not etc. I went to Spitsberg in northern Norway, I had the responsibility at that time. Svalbard. I was running a big commercial in Paris with pictures with us putting new equipment at Svalbard among polar bears. It was an interesting journey. Afterwards I took my phd. Been doing research, strategy and architecture.

Silvija: Your pdh is in networks, what does it mean?

Terje: It’s from dimentoing mobile networks.

Silvija: Figure out how big the mast has to be?

Terje: Or the capacity. What it the future demands on services and how do we translate it to what we need to build and where to we put the masts i.e.

Silvija: Design and purposes. This was useful once you had to roll out networks and huge scaling in some of the countries where the infrastructure wasn't ready.

Terje: Yes, and they're still useful because you need to understand the relationship between the customers and how they use applications like youtube, facebook etc. How does it translate into how we should build the networks? It's still relevant, even after 30 years.

Silvija: You've been with the company for more than 30 years. You've seen a huge change in the company and technology of networks. Now you're running network architecture, what does it mean?

Terje: It's taking business ambitions. What we want to become in each country. Like we want to be the leading, best in this and that or digital health. In Norway we're the leading company in terms of speed worldwide. What does it mean in terms of how we need to build networks?

Silvija: Are we aiming for being the leading company in the world speedwise?

Terje: We have been in Norway. Last year we got an award. Highest speed in the world.

Silvija: Congrats Telenor. Can you tell us about those 30 years? How did the company change? How did networks change?

Terje: We're almost a Norwegian company. Civil servant state employees. It's a radical distance.

Silvija: No international ambitions to begin with.

Terje: There were huge waiting lines to get a fixed line telephony. You were not proud to say you were working for Telenor those days. People started to say "why are you preventing me from getting a phone". We just got money from the government from their budget. The government decided how much money we should spend in Norway. Which was a struggle for years.

Silvija: It was a big filter on your growth.

Terje: There were huge queues to get fixed lines.

Silvija: How did we become one of the largest mobile phone companies in the world?

Terje: I would say it's a fairytale. A Norwegian operator coming from that background. We've been bold, exploring, willing to take bets and a bit of luck.

Silvija: The brave explorer. Norwegians don't stop to think these days about the fact that Telenor is one of the major phone operator companies in the world. The country has 5 million people, it's smaller than a regular city in some countries. Something happened with the technology which made it possible?

Terje: And the people's mindset. We had the right people in the management, but also export. Willing to explore and let's start in i.e Hungary and Bangladesh. They started small and scaled from there on.

Silvija: We do something good in radio technology in GMS and networks?

Terje: If we go back in history we are a part of the standardisation. It was perfect timing for taking the bets.

Silvija: We understood the challenges and what the solutions are going to be.

Terje: Timing is important and being in the right market at the right time.

Silvija: I know there are these tellcall networks. I'm thinking about cables, radio, licency and frequencies. I know a bit about data networks with TCP IP, which is a different way of connecting things. Somewhere in this Telenor try to serve people across and in combination. What kind of networks do you have and in what way are we good at building it?

Terje: We have all kinds of networks. Meaning cables, radio, mobile networks, 2G, 3G, 4G and soon 5G. That's where we have a smartphone which we can connect to the networks i.e. That's the radio part. And broadband. Both mobile broadband which is on the smartphone, but also fixed which is fiber or copper, or cable TV.

Silvija: Where do you get the internet in the mix?

Terje: It's above all of it. You can access the internet whenever.

Silvija: It the sore of the communication you're doing on top of these physical networks.

Terje: I would consider it as layers. You need to provide basic layers with the broadband, either on mobile or fixed. Then you provide services on top, which i.e is internet access or messaging.

Silvija: Telenor has moved from being a voice service first company to internet service first company.

Terje: These days almost everything is about mobile and internet.

Silvija: Has your expertise been challenged and changed or could you imply the things you were working on networks before the new kind of networks?

Terje: If you ask me personally I would say yes. But you need to develop yourself. You cannot stick with what I learned 30 years ago. You need to be aware of what's going on and place yourself behind the desk again, and start reading and discussing.

Silvija: The experts are learning throughout their lives now.

Terje: That's the part of my phd, to learn how to learn.

Silvija: We phd's have to unlearn some arrogance.  None of us have it. Networks. You're dimensioning them correctly, but the world is changing and we're using the networks in unprecedented ways. Suddenly we use them for health services, where it has to be real time, detailed, images, pictures, not just voice. How quickly can you adjust? You mention your networks for certain future needs, but the world changes in unpredictable ways. How do you do your magic?

Terje: The good thing is that we typically build networks for populations. Not everyone starts to do e-health at the same time. 

Silvija: Digital health. 

Terje: It’s a gradual development of it. But it’s important, especially as architects, to look ahead. We need to sit down with partners to discuss what the trends in society are when it comes to new applications like digital health or remote controlling vehicles etc. What we are doing in Kongsberg together with a partner there if you look at the buses. 

Silvija: I’ve heard about the autonomous self-driving buses in Kongsberg. Some of the cars are autonomous, don’t remember where. 

Terje: US. 

Silvija: Kongsberg has a bus? 

Terje: It goes on a defined route in Kongsberg between the square and the railway station, and the universities. 

Silvija: Why is it a challenge for the network?

Terje: Because the network needs to be available all the time if something is happening and needs to report back if it needs to have a manuell driver. 

Silvija: Roadworks and networks. 

Terje: It needs to fit together. The autonomous bus is driving by itself, but needs to be connected to a head quarter to report what’s going on if something happens and take the proper actions. 

Silvija: You need to dimension it. There is a resource question here. We’re spending a lot of money on expanding Norway’s network infrastructure. People don’t know how much money Telenor actually spends on it every year. The whole point of being the fastest network in the world didn’t come for free. It’s important for the development of our society and its ability to digitalise. Why can’t we do even more? We’re one of the richest countries in the world per capita at least. Why do you still have to think smart when you dimension rather than go all in?

Terje: It’s a money issue, which is one of the resources. Then it’s a spectrum issue which also is controlled by the government. That means the connection between the smartphone and the mast in a way. It travels through the air. We have a certain limited spectrum. It was a spectrum motion in Germany that finished a couple of days ago. Really expensive. 

Silvija: This is also a limited natural resource. 

Terje: That’s a part of the resource issues. I don’t think people wants to have antennas all over the place. That’s something we work hard with together with our partners to make them blend in with the rest of the buildings or put it in an artificial tree etc. 

Silvija: Something people talk a lot about today is cloud computing. Cloud is a nice idea that your data is nowhere, but it’s on a server. You just have to use a lot of networks to get there. Somebody will guarantee that you’ve the data, but also that you have access to the data. How do you divide the cost? You’re guaranteeing people’s access to clouds even though somebody else is getting money off those cloud services. How does it work? 

Terje: That’s a fight between the different parties in the cold value chain. The network's operations are providing the transfer of the information and someone else is providing the services. It’s the same around Facebook and Youtube etc. 

Silvija: You connect for getting there or being there is the question. 

Terje: Yes. Typically the end customer pay for both today. That’s something we could argue about. We’re building our own cloud. We got a prize in Berlin two weeks ago. We’re among the leading telecom operators doing it. 

Silvija: Why is it leading? 

Terje: We’re moving a lot of traffic on to those. We’ve set ambitions that more than 90 percent of our mobile traffic should be carried by the cloud platform which we’re building ourselves. 

Silvija: I thought that mobile traffic is carried by the network. Why does it need to be on the cloud?

Terje: The way we’re using the cloud internally is for producing our network services. It’s not what Google is doing. 

Silvija: For storing data?

Terje: Not only, but for controlling the mobile services. It's like a pipeline. We’re managing the pipeline with the cloud. 

Silvija: Now you can educate me. I’ve heard that telecoms need to go from being a dump pipe to being a smart pipe. Are you talking about the smart pipe? 

Terje: Yes. That’s where we can introduce more intelligence. It’s strictly needed when we’re entering 5G. 

Silvija: This is smarter traffic.

Terje: Smarter handling of the traffic. 

Silvija: Is there so much calculation in handling the traffic you need a whole cloud service for it? This is what we normal mortals don’t realise. 

Terje: We need to use the limited resources smarter and smarter. Otherwise we’re throwing money and effort away. None of the operators can do that. We need to use the spectrum that we call the limited air resources more efficiently and the other resources with what we’re doing. We need to do it more efficiently. 

Silvija: Because there's more and more traffic. 

Terje: We need to do it personalised. We need to deliver the services according to your needs. 

Silvija: You, does my traffic differ from your traffic?

Terje: We’re moving differently. That’s one example. Your daily routine is different from mine, I hope or maybe not. 

Silvija: What does it mean for my traffic needs?

Terje: When you’re home you can get your services for what you use in the morning i.e. You can start downloading whatever you need when you’re on your journey from leaving your home in the morning. 

Silvija: Somehow you reshuffle bandwidth with the connections I get so it’s optimized for my typical usage. 

Terje: That’s the ideal situation. We’re not there yet and no one are there. 

Silvija: We get critical services on the stack. 

Terje: If you think about an accident somewhere, and need to get the ambulance, police and the fire department, then it’s important to do this. 

Silvija: The whole idea of the internet started with the need of flexible routing in warzones. We’re getting to a stage where we’re so scared of cybersecurity that we know we need some sort of self healing. Both network and cybersecurity stuff. It’s that an area where you work?

Terje: Yes, security and robustness is very important for us. We’re exposed to attacks. I probably shouldn’t say that. Everybody is exposed to different kind of attacks. Whether it’s cybersecurity, but it’s also psychical things. 

Silvija: With the role network providers play in today everyday and critical business, and social activities, is more central than what the police or the military have to keep safe. It gives you a big responsibility. 

Terje: Telenor Norway is a part of the critical infrastructure. We’re a part of the society in that sense. Also during critical situations. In several countries the operators have this position. That means we’ve to work together with the police and those agencies i.e. To make sure that are networks and services are surviving in those kinds of incidents. 

Silvija: One thing I think is fascinating in what you do is you’ve to try to balance the futures improvement with the scalability and simplicity of science-fictiony network life. With the historic legacy. 

Terje: Call it a controversy. If you start with adding and adding on new things, it’s like never cleaning a room. It’s going to be full at the end and to be too complex to handle. At the same time we’re introducing new things, we have to take out the olds. It’s easy. 

Silvija: Nobody likes to lose things. 

Terje: Yes, how do we do that? It’s not a trivial task to do. 

Silvija: I love the way we love to hate some of the new internet services and providers. Yet, none of us are willing to give it up. At least on a voluntary basis. Can I ask you about internet of things? Cause that’s adding a new kind of network to your networks. For the time being it’s more of a hype. 

Terje: Norway is one of the biggest internet of things providers today. 

Silvija: And you’ve the internet of things for Norway, tingenes internett, which is an amazing project. I like you to say more about it because it’s relevant to the internet of things. Too many people like myself try to make a smart house and to find the right light bulb, ventilation and security systems etc, but nothing is connected. It’s a lack of standardisation. 

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Terje: That’s where the industry is. It’s too many intivatives in a way. 

Silvija: We’re moving to a place and time where the internet of things will be the way we run our house or lives and fantasies. What does it mean for networks?

Terje: We need to be controlled. You and I as a person need to feel like we’re in control of it. How do we get there? First of all we need to be sure that there’s trust. There’s a role for someone to provide a service where you feel that you’re in control. We need to avoid these things. Because if someone attacks the devices you’re out of control. There’s a lot of opportunities for any player to take those roles. 

Silvija: This is an example of no one being assigned the responsibility to make sure that these things are safe. Toy producers can put a stupid chip in a toy, and if it can be hacked, well, nice. If a pacemaker puts a poorly protected chip in a pacemaker we’re suddenly having a serious social vulnerability. Who is responsible to stop this from happening? At the moment, nobody. 

Terje: It’s a white paper out on this topic. There’s a discussion going on if it’s the government's responsibility? An individual? Is it the one providing it? Or should it be the operator who should take some basic responsibility?

Silvija: What do you think? 

Terje: I think it’s a mix. All of these parties need to contribute. Of course the operator can do something, but it’s difficult to protect every kind of use and misuse of the devices. Also as an individual you need to be aware of it. The operator can engage the awareness. Of course coming back to cybersecurity. If you’re at home, start switching the passwords so your Wifi is not open to everyone. It’s surprising how many of them are open. 

Silvija: Don’t have a password like “2019”

Terje: It’s surprising how many who don’t know how open they are for these attacks. 

Silvija: What are the basic hygiene steps we should the when it comes to network security that we can take responsibility for? 

Terje: You should consider the passwords you’re using. Look at what could happen. Minimize the effect if something happen. Of course, look for what kind of cybersecurity or wireless protection programs that are out there. If you look at your smartphone, not everyone are updated with the newest features. The newest features are consulting the way to block for the new attacks. 

Silvija: Latest protection. 

Terje: To be aware of it is part of what you should do.

Silvija: You work from Norway, but have a global team? 

Terje: Yes, it’s a spicy plan for daily life. We’re people from different countries, in addition to the individual difference, it’s also a cultural difference we have to be aware of. 

Silvija: It’s a useful thing because the whole thinking around networks must be different. 

Terje: We have people in all of the operations which have a finger on what’s going on. It’s interesting and they are good people. 

Silvija: What are the advantages you bring from Norway and the advantages you get from abroad? 

Terje: I think it’s a good mix. It’s risky for me to claim that Norwegians are like this, but typically we’re more open and listening. Kind of accepting that it’s different ways of doing things. Let's rather focus on what we want to achieve than the details on how you do it. It’s different ways of moving forward. That’s accepting the different ways to act in the organisation. Which is a part of the culture. 

Silvija: The first thing that comes to my mind is that Norwegians are very unherocious. 

Terje: As a Norwegian you can go into certain Asian countries and be completely misinterpreted. As a Norwegian you’re open for discussion and what we should. That’s not the way they are in the Asian countries. 

Silvija: “You’re the boss, tell me what to do.” 

Terje: Yes, and “if you ask me what to do I don’t know and after the meeting they don’t know what to do”. You need to be aware of it, the meeting needs to be about “you do this” and then you tell me what you”ve done. If you do it in Norway or Sweden it doesn’t work. 

Silvija: Too bossy.

Terje: Yes, we’re the opposite. 

Silvija: I’m a little too bossy for Norway. I really love collaborating with people and think I’m being creative and productive when I try to drive the process by concluding. Recently a dear friend, never say it directly because Norwegians won’t criticize you directly, but he was starting to tell a common friend of mine “South Europeans are too quick to jump to conclusions”. While the Scandinavians have a more rational and analytic model. I understood what he meant. 

Terje: We’re not in Eastern Europe anymore too the extent like before, but to neighbouring countries there, Serbia and Hungary, the culture is completely different. You need to be aware of it. One day you’ve a meeting in Belgrade and Budapest, and you need to behave differently. 

Silvija: Still you do launches in the countries and you learn a lot?

Terje: That’s part of the global teams, to pull in learnings from all of the countries. The markets are at different levels. Typically nordics are sparehanding to some of the development. 

Silvija: You did something cool in South Korea? 

Terje: Or discussing, we’re not the ones doing it. South Korea was among the first countries to launch 5G. We had a session with them yesterday, you should’ve been there. 

Silvija: What’s the most interesting impression?

Terje: Gaming and social network, and video all over. They want gaming high definition video. 

Silvija: THey need a lot of network. 

Terje: Yes, they’re consuming a lot of capacity. They told me that when they’re moving the newest player over to the 5G network they are spending up to 7 times as much as the old customers. It’s going to be a big challenge for us as well going forward. It’s a challenge we could solve. 

Silvija: That’s an opportunity since you could become the best in the whole world. 

Terje: Let's see. 

Silvija: It's an update coming soon. It's a quick sale if you’ve a solution. 

Terje: Not exactly. The example from South Korea is something I don’t hope happens in other countries as fast. They’re passing 1 million customers in 69 days. 

Silvija: One million in two months. Normally when you roll out mobile services in new countries what’s a normal uptake? 

Terje: It takes months to get there. It’s a good thing that things are moving a bit slow because then you can control, build the networks and learn. 

Silvija: Dr. Network, what should we learn?

Terje: We should never stop to learn. Learn from everyone and that’s why we have the sessions with South Korea. They’re a bit ahead of us in some parts. You should never stop learning. But it’s going to grow. We’re going to launch 5G and I think Sigve is going to reveal the date in a different market. It’s going to be a big jump in consumption, gradually hopefully. 

Silvija: If not you'll have to think fast. 

Terje: We’re trying to think fast. Again, we need to be intelligent. 

Silvija: You need to help me with a paradox. I’ve asked a lot of people and getting good answers, but not a clear one. Norway is one of the smallest country, 5.5 million people, less than an average city in many countries. Still, we’re one of the leading technology societies. We have the networks, oil services that’s the real source of our wealth, fish farming that also is to scale up a business that was dangerous and not profitable until recently. Why?

Terje: We’ve been brave and taken some bold moves depending on which political direction. The government has played a role if you look at oil and fish farming. 

Silvija: Maybe even Telenor? 

Terje: Even Telenor as they’re owning more than 50 per cent. It’s both a stabilising factor in a sense, but allowing us to explore. It’s coming back to where we’re coming from as well. We like to explore and figure out things. Let's try it and see how it goes. 

Silvija: There’s an element of exploration where I think many people play it as they were playing a game of chess. I believe that life's a game of poker. 

Terje: Truly taking a chance. 

Silvija: No, cause you can’t control what cards you get. It’s like when you go on an exploration when you innovate. You don’t know what you’re going to find, so you have to play the hand in a smart way. Then you have to be open for new findings. Why? 

Terje: You need to be mindful to look for opportunities. You need to read like in poker. I agree to a certain extent. You need to read the faces of the people around you. What they want. You need to play on their strengths and weaknesses. 

Silvija: You’ve to know how to work with people. 

Terje: Yes, it’s important. Working with people is important, you can’t do everything yourself. 

Silvija: As a good technologist you’ve probably had the same problem as me. I really need to fix things myself. It's something in the way of working with people. How did you learn and how do you work with people? 

Terje: Coming from the operations in a way, I had hands-on experience from the beginning. Giving me confidence that I know how to do things myself, so the learning has been to stay away and to try to offer an explanation and motivation why you should do it. Particularly in the nordic markets. 

Silvija: Not how they should do it. 

Terje: Yes. And give them flexibility, rather ask them to come back to me if they don’t figure it out. And I’ve been playing, some of the Asian countries are experimenting with the same thing. It doesn’t work. 

Silvija: You’ve to find the right way to communicate. 

Terje: You’ve to get directions and be clear on what to do, but give them flexibility. It’s a part of the motivation to figure it out themselves. It’s like a kid as well. 

Silvija: The cost of risk is bigger in other countries than Norway. Here you’re forgiven. We’ve been trained that it’s many social filters or things protecting you so taking risks is ok here. In many other countries, including the one I’m from, I’m Hungarian, but grew up in Serbia, if you take risks you haven’t been told to do or tasks, and it doesn't go well you’re in much bigger trouble than you would’ve been in Norway. 

Terje: Particularly in i.e Thailand, if you’re losing face in public is not a good thing. You’ve to remember when you’re talking to a person and say “this was not good, you’ve to talk to that person one-to-one”. That’s important and it’s the same in Norway. 

Silvija: I’ve asked what you recommend to read. You outnerded. You pointed to GSM, ITSI, IT, ITFM, I’ve to admit, most of these things don’t really inspire motivation. Is a book or a film about social networks? 

Terje: Not a Hollywood film I think, it probably should be a soap opera. They have soap opera about lots of things, but not about engineers and networks. There Are lots of things we could do. I was doing a google search, so if you type in “5G” you get more than half a billion hit. With “cloud” you get more than 3.5 billion. Good luck finding the right source, it doesn’t exist. 

Silvija: What do we do? 

Terje: What we’re doing for competence in development is to run a bit in a structural way. We bit a target, this is the online training, this are the academies we should join etc. Actually, you find a lot of good literature behind the four letter abbreviations you got. 

Silvija: It will get me sleepy. I think what we are missing are a few good books about how it happened and what the stories are behind etc. It makes it more personal. I just finished 

(?)cathedral and the innovators. Both are serious biographies of Silicon Valley in a way. I think we need to do it with some of our Norwegian technologies, especially networks. Do you have a quote?

Terje: I’ve one I’ve used for decades. It goes in lines that chance favours the prepared minds. If you’re aware of the opportunities it’s better to think through because you need to detect those opportunities as well. It’s easier to actually figure out what you should dive into. You could turn it around, don’t be too arrowed minded and too determined. It’s more valuable since then you also miss the opportunities. Be open and open to learn. 

Silvija: But be quick enough to realise it’s a good thing coming your way. 

Terje: That is also a challenge, especially in a big organisation. One thing is that the people are quick enough, but the organisations has to be quick enough. 

Silvija: If people has to remember one thing?

Terje: I would say that look for the opportunities and explore. 

Silvija: Lots of opportunities in the future of networks. 

Terje: Yes, in 5G and Cloud it’s lots of opportunity. Look for those and take them. 

Silvija: You’re working in the area where it’s going to make or break future competitive positions, both of nations but also companies. 

Terje: We like to believe so, but of course we have to work together with others. It’s going to be more important. No company can win these by themselves. 

Silvija: Terje Jensen, senior vice president and head of network architecture at Telenor, thank you for coming and inspiring me to learn more about networks. 

Terje: Thank you. 

Silvija: Thank you for listening.