Hvem er du, og hvordan ble du interessert i AI og teknologien rundt?
– Allsidig teknolog med erfaring fra teknologi på tvers – fra biotek til havbruk til energimarkeder til kunstig intelligens. Er en særdeles engasjert realist som har jobbet for å fremme teknologens rolle i samfunnet.
– Jeg ble interessert i AI særlig for 5 år siden da jeg var prosjekteier for et design thinking prosjekt for å se på hva teknologer var mest interessert i. Ikke overraskende, men ga god innsikt i den trenden som var der, men ikke like tydelig opp i dagen for allmennheten.
– Har utviklet tjenester basert på AI, men har også oppdaget behovet for god datakvalitet som må være grunnlaget for å utvikle tjenester basert på AI. Vi måtte derfor gå ett steg tilbake for å jobbe med datagrunnlaget først før vi fikk effekt av AI.
Hva er det viktigste dere/du gjør på jobben?
Det må være den delene av jobben som går ut på å jobbe som døråpnere og koble bedrifter med bedrifter og bedrifter med virkemiddelapparatet. Vi er en slags koblingsboks som legger grunnlag for mange nye samarbeidskonstellasjoner og innovasjonsprosjekter. For oss er det viktigste å skape et økosystem som fostrer åpen innovasjon relatert til anvendt AI. Heltelt praktisk betyr det å knytte problemeiere og problemløsere sammen, og tilgjengeliggjøre og utvikle en plattform for innovasjon, kompetanseutvikling og internasjonalisering.
Hva fokuserer du på innen teknologi/innovasjon?
Hovedsakelig innovasjonspotensiale og muliggjørende teknologi for en mer bærekraftig verden. Det er ikke teknologien i seg selv som er viktig, men hvilken nytte den har for samfunnet og hvilke muligheter den skaper. Det handler om å bruke teknologi til det beste for mennesker og natur. For meg handler det om å se «hele bildet» i et tidvis fragmentert landskap.
Hvilke problemer kan løses ved hjelp av digitalisering eller AI?
Osv.
Jeg er også veldig opptatt av kompetanse innen AI og generell digital kompetanse. Vi trenger både mange med spisskompetanse, men også at alle har et generelt høyere nivå enn i dag. At folk generelt er digitalt kompetente er viktig for å sikre at vi er kritiske forbrukere/brukere. I tillegg er det viktig vi trenger å fokusere på Læring hele livet, og det er ikke sånn at vi er ferdig utdanna etter noen år på universitetet. Vi er mer tjent med at vi fyller på med relevant kunnskap gjennom hele livet. Veldig mange teknologibedrifter har sagt at de ønsker å ansette nyutdannede for å dekke sitt behov for teknologer. Paradokset er at det utdannes ikke nok – og at man sitter med mange som ikke har relevant kompetanse for fremtidens arbeidsliv.
Hvorfor er det spennende?
Det er så mange som har noen helt geniale ideer og ser potensiale du ikke har tenkt på før. Det er utrolig spennende fordi man hele tiden får innblikk i og av og til ta del i utviklingen av nye ideer og konsepter, og ingen dag er lik. Videre forutsetter det at man er åpen og hele tiden lærer- både fra utviklings og anvendelsesperspektivet for teknologien. Det er gøy å være med å bidra til økt innovasjon og andres selskapers suksess. – og særlig se hvordan de kan skape fruktbare samarbeid.
Hva synes du er de mest interessante kontroverser?
Vi ser et stadig økende fokus på dataøkonomien og digitalisering. Samtidig lever vi i en fysisk verden, der forbruket vårt er til å se og ta på og menneskelig kontakt er viktig for oss. Tjenestenæringen (varehandel, offentlig virksomhet o.l.) er vår største næring og sysselsetter 78% av norske arbeidstakere.
Hvordan sikrer vi at teknologien brukes til bærekraftig verdiskaping og samtidig menneskers fysiske behov og sunn mellommenneskelig samhandling? Hva gjør det med tilliten i samfunnet når den menneskelige kontakten reduseres?
Viktigheten av å gå i dybden når det gjelder å forstå sammenhenger og hvordan beslutningsgrunnlag dannes. Korrelasjon og kausalitet er jo ikke nødvendigvis sammenfallende, men korrelasjoner kan fort legges til grunn for å peke på sammenhenger. Da blir det viktig at vi kjenner beslutningsveiene som teknologien har, såkalt «explainable AI» i dette feltet.
Når det gjelder kunstig intelligens, kan det for eksempel også være en utfordring at algoritmer trenes på historiske datagrunnlag, når vi vet at mange av vår tids store oppdagelser har blitt til som rene tilfeldigheter. Hva vil da skje med innovasjon drevet av «serendipity»?
Det er også interessant hvordan vi ønsker at alle våre data skal ivaretas gjennom GDPR og likevel forventer at vi skal få alt fra spesialdesignet medisin til målrettede tjenester.
Dine egne relevante prosjekter siste året?
– Politisk påvirkning og rammevilkår for datadeling og data som ressurs
– Kompetanse – livslang læring (har skrevet et kapittel om dette i UNESCOs Engineering report som kom i mars)
– Utvikle et karrierekompass basert på medlemsdata (og å kunne ta i bruk AI og likevel sikre GDPR i prosjekter). Prosjektet var basert på design thinking og behovsdrevet tjenesteutvikling.
– Bygge et AI-landslag for å sikre at vi engasjerer alle miljø for å styrke Norges mulighet til å bli en ledende AI nasjon.
– Drive innovasjonsprosjekter for både problemeierne og problemløserne innen AI.
Dine andre favoritteksempler på lignende prosjekter, internasjonalt og nasjonalt?
Det er utrolig spennende å se hvordan AI-teknologi kan totalt endre bransjer, eller gjøre de vesentlig mer effektive. Og ikke minst utvikle nye og bedre tjenester.
Hva tror du er relevant kunnskap for fremtiden?
Pandemien har vist oss at isolasjon ikke er bra for oss. Folk trenger andre folk rundt seg. Menneskekunnskap og hvordan behovene vil endre seg vil være viktig også i fremtiden, og da spesielt sett i lys av hvordan teknologi kan tilpasses menneskers behov. I tillegg vil kunnskap om bærekraft, miljø og sirkulærøkonomi bli stadig viktigere. Vi må evne å innovere og bruke teknologi som muliggjør lang levetid større grad av reparasjon, gjenbruk og en ny voksende tjenestenæring der livsløpsforlengende reparasjon vil står sentralt.Videre er det helt kritisk at vi er i stand til å vurdere de etiske dilemmaene, for eksempel knyttet til bærekraft i forretningsmodeller og personvern. Jeg er også opptatt av at AI skal benyttes som et verktøy for å styrke og utvikle våre positive menneskelige egenskaper, ikke for å erstatte oss.
Hva gjør vi unikt godt i Norge innen AI?
Norge har fordelen av å være et land som ligger langt fremme i digitaliseringen, og befolkningen har gjennomsnittlig god tilgang til og høy kompetanse på digitale systemer. Dette sikrer hurtigere adopsjon av nye digitale produkter og tjenester, også hvor AI spiller en viktig rolle. Videre er vi stadig sterkere på anvendt forskning innen ulike grener, og på den kommersielle siden ser vi mange vekstselskaper innen språkteknologi som er aktuelle innen en rekke bransjer.
Anbefalt lesing/seing om ditt felt? (bøker, film, artikler som inspirerer folk flest)
iHuman filmen (den så jeg på førpremiere dagen før Norge stengte ned): Tar opp en del etiske problemstillinger som gir godt grunnlag for refleksjon runde etiske tema.
Det nye digitale Norge – en artikkelsamling om nye teknologier, og sammensmeltingen mellom de.
Digital transformasjon og bærekraft – studie på NTNU av Arne Krokan.
Og har akkurat begynt på Staten og dataen 😊
Et favoritt sitat?
“There is no innovation and creativity without failure. Period.”
Viktigste poeng fra vår samtale? (dette blir vår oppsummering av podkasten din)
Sammen er vi sterkere, og gjennom deling av kompetanse kan flere bli vinnere
Vi må ha med oss etisk refleksjon rundt bruk av AI
AI og teknologi trenger ikke være en trussel, den vil være gi oss støtte og bedre muligheter
Hvem er du, og hvordan ble du interessert i AI og teknologien rundt?
– Allsidig teknolog med erfaring fra teknologi på tvers – fra biotek til havbruk til energimarkeder til kunstig intelligens. Er en særdeles engasjert realist som har jobbet for å fremme teknologens rolle i samfunnet.
– Jeg ble interessert i AI særlig for 5 år siden da jeg var prosjekteier for et design thinking prosjekt for å se på hva teknologer var mest interessert i. Ikke overraskende, men ga god innsikt i den trenden som var der, men ikke like tydelig opp i dagen for allmennheten.
– Har utviklet tjenester basert på AI, men har også oppdaget behovet for god datakvalitet som må være grunnlaget for å utvikle tjenester basert på AI. Vi måtte derfor gå ett steg tilbake for å jobbe med datagrunnlaget først før vi fikk effekt av AI.
Hva er det viktigste dere/du gjør på jobben?
Det må være den delene av jobben som går ut på å jobbe som døråpnere og koble bedrifter med bedrifter og bedrifter med virkemiddelapparatet. Vi er en slags koblingsboks som legger grunnlag for mange nye samarbeidskonstellasjoner og innovasjonsprosjekter. For oss er det viktigste å skape et økosystem som fostrer åpen innovasjon relatert til anvendt AI. Heltelt praktisk betyr det å knytte problemeiere og problemløsere sammen, og tilgjengeliggjøre og utvikle en plattform for innovasjon, kompetanseutvikling og internasjonalisering.
Hva fokuserer du på innen teknologi/innovasjon?
Hovedsakelig innovasjonspotensiale og muliggjørende teknologi for en mer bærekraftig verden. Det er ikke teknologien i seg selv som er viktig, men hvilken nytte den har for samfunnet og hvilke muligheter den skaper. Det handler om å bruke teknologi til det beste for mennesker og natur. For meg handler det om å se «hele bildet» i et tidvis fragmentert landskap.
Hvilke problemer kan løses ved hjelp av digitalisering eller AI?
Osv.
Jeg er også veldig opptatt av kompetanse innen AI og generell digital kompetanse. Vi trenger både mange med spisskompetanse, men også at alle har et generelt høyere nivå enn i dag. At folk generelt er digitalt kompetente er viktig for å sikre at vi er kritiske forbrukere/brukere. I tillegg er det viktig vi trenger å fokusere på Læring hele livet, og det er ikke sånn at vi er ferdig utdanna etter noen år på universitetet. Vi er mer tjent med at vi fyller på med relevant kunnskap gjennom hele livet. Veldig mange teknologibedrifter har sagt at de ønsker å ansette nyutdannede for å dekke sitt behov for teknologer. Paradokset er at det utdannes ikke nok – og at man sitter med mange som ikke har relevant kompetanse for fremtidens arbeidsliv.
Hvorfor er det spennende?
Det er så mange som har noen helt geniale ideer og ser potensiale du ikke har tenkt på før. Det er utrolig spennende fordi man hele tiden får innblikk i og av og til ta del i utviklingen av nye ideer og konsepter, og ingen dag er lik. Videre forutsetter det at man er åpen og hele tiden lærer- både fra utviklings og anvendelsesperspektivet for teknologien. Det er gøy å være med å bidra til økt innovasjon og andres selskapers suksess. – og særlig se hvordan de kan skape fruktbare samarbeid.
Hva synes du er de mest interessante kontroverser?
Vi ser et stadig økende fokus på dataøkonomien og digitalisering. Samtidig lever vi i en fysisk verden, der forbruket vårt er til å se og ta på og menneskelig kontakt er viktig for oss. Tjenestenæringen (varehandel, offentlig virksomhet o.l.) er vår største næring og sysselsetter 78% av norske arbeidstakere.
Hvordan sikrer vi at teknologien brukes til bærekraftig verdiskaping og samtidig menneskers fysiske behov og sunn mellommenneskelig samhandling? Hva gjør det med tilliten i samfunnet når den menneskelige kontakten reduseres?
Viktigheten av å gå i dybden når det gjelder å forstå sammenhenger og hvordan beslutningsgrunnlag dannes. Korrelasjon og kausalitet er jo ikke nødvendigvis sammenfallende, men korrelasjoner kan fort legges til grunn for å peke på sammenhenger. Da blir det viktig at vi kjenner beslutningsveiene som teknologien har, såkalt «explainable AI» i dette feltet.
Når det gjelder kunstig intelligens, kan det for eksempel også være en utfordring at algoritmer trenes på historiske datagrunnlag, når vi vet at mange av vår tids store oppdagelser har blitt til som rene tilfeldigheter. Hva vil da skje med innovasjon drevet av «serendipity»?
Det er også interessant hvordan vi ønsker at alle våre data skal ivaretas gjennom GDPR og likevel forventer at vi skal få alt fra spesialdesignet medisin til målrettede tjenester.
Dine egne relevante prosjekter siste året?
– Politisk påvirkning og rammevilkår for datadeling og data som ressurs
– Kompetanse – livslang læring (har skrevet et kapittel om dette i UNESCOs Engineering report som kom i mars)
– Utvikle et karrierekompass basert på medlemsdata (og å kunne ta i bruk AI og likevel sikre GDPR i prosjekter). Prosjektet var basert på design thinking og behovsdrevet tjenesteutvikling.
– Bygge et AI-landslag for å sikre at vi engasjerer alle miljø for å styrke Norges mulighet til å bli en ledende AI nasjon.
– Drive innovasjonsprosjekter for både problemeierne og problemløserne innen AI.
Dine andre favoritteksempler på lignende prosjekter, internasjonalt og nasjonalt?
Det er utrolig spennende å se hvordan AI-teknologi kan totalt endre bransjer, eller gjøre de vesentlig mer effektive. Og ikke minst utvikle nye og bedre tjenester.
Hva tror du er relevant kunnskap for fremtiden?
Pandemien har vist oss at isolasjon ikke er bra for oss. Folk trenger andre folk rundt seg. Menneskekunnskap og hvordan behovene vil endre seg vil være viktig også i fremtiden, og da spesielt sett i lys av hvordan teknologi kan tilpasses menneskers behov. I tillegg vil kunnskap om bærekraft, miljø og sirkulærøkonomi bli stadig viktigere. Vi må evne å innovere og bruke teknologi som muliggjør lang levetid større grad av reparasjon, gjenbruk og en ny voksende tjenestenæring der livsløpsforlengende reparasjon vil står sentralt.Videre er det helt kritisk at vi er i stand til å vurdere de etiske dilemmaene, for eksempel knyttet til bærekraft i forretningsmodeller og personvern. Jeg er også opptatt av at AI skal benyttes som et verktøy for å styrke og utvikle våre positive menneskelige egenskaper, ikke for å erstatte oss.
Hva gjør vi unikt godt i Norge innen AI?
Norge har fordelen av å være et land som ligger langt fremme i digitaliseringen, og befolkningen har gjennomsnittlig god tilgang til og høy kompetanse på digitale systemer. Dette sikrer hurtigere adopsjon av nye digitale produkter og tjenester, også hvor AI spiller en viktig rolle. Videre er vi stadig sterkere på anvendt forskning innen ulike grener, og på den kommersielle siden ser vi mange vekstselskaper innen språkteknologi som er aktuelle innen en rekke bransjer.
Anbefalt lesing/seing om ditt felt? (bøker, film, artikler som inspirerer folk flest)
iHuman filmen (den så jeg på førpremiere dagen før Norge stengte ned): Tar opp en del etiske problemstillinger som gir godt grunnlag for refleksjon runde etiske tema.
Det nye digitale Norge – en artikkelsamling om nye teknologier, og sammensmeltingen mellom de.
Digital transformasjon og bærekraft – studie på NTNU av Arne Krokan.
Og har akkurat begynt på Staten og dataen 😊
Et favoritt sitat?
“There is no innovation and creativity without failure. Period.”
Viktigste poeng fra vår samtale? (dette blir vår oppsummering av podkasten din)
Sammen er vi sterkere, og gjennom deling av kompetanse kan flere bli vinnere
Vi må ha med oss etisk refleksjon rundt bruk av AI
AI og teknologi trenger ikke være en trussel, den vil være gi oss støtte og bedre muligheter
AI and Machine learningStrategic innovation
Collaboration
Changes in the energy markets
The movie Digital transformasjon og bærekraft – A study on NTNU by Arne Krokan.
Del denne Casen
En LØRN CASE er en kort og praktisk, lett og morsom, innovasjonshistorie. Den er fortalt på 30 minutter, er samtalebasert, og virker like bra som podkast, video eller tekst. Lytt og lær der det passer deg best! Vi dekker 15 tematiske områder om teknologi, innovasjon og ledelse, og 10 perspektiver som gründer, forsker etc. På denne siden kan du lytte, se eller lese gratis, men vi anbefaler deg å registrere deg, slik at vi kan lage personaliserte læringsstier for nettopp deg.
Vi vil gjerne hjelpe deg komme i gang og fortsette å drive med livslang læring.
En LØRN CASE er en kort og praktisk, lett og morsom, innovasjonshistorie. Den er fortalt på 30 minutter, er samtalebasert, og virker like bra som podkast, video eller tekst. Lytt og lær der det passer deg best! Vi dekker 15 tematiske områder om teknologi, innovasjon og ledelse, og 10 perspektiver som gründer, forsker etc. På denne siden kan du lytte, se eller lese gratis, men vi anbefaler deg å registrere deg, slik at vi kan lage personaliserte læringsstier for nettopp deg. Vi vil gjerne hjelpe deg komme i gang og fortsette å drive med livslang læring.
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BaneNor
Velkommen til Lørn.Tech - en læringsdugnad om teknologi og samfunn. Med Silvija Seres og venner.
Silvija Seres: Hello and welcome to a Lørn conversation. My name is Silvija Seres and my guest today is Eli Haugerud who is Head of Clusters of Smart Innovation Norway. Welcome Eli.
Eli Haugerud: Thank you Sylvia.
Silvija: I'll say a few words about the series that this is a part of, and then we'll jump into the conversation. It's not really a lecture, it's not a debate. It's just a friendly conversation between two interested ladies. The focus of the series that we are part of now is new perspectives on applied artificial intelligence. So, we have about 20 people who have very interesting and unique perspectives and your perspective, Eli, I think would be related to the clusters that you are heading. Where one is actually called Cluster for Applied AI and the other one is about smart energy markets, both super interesting application areas. Industrial and the energy markets. Have I got that more or less, right?
Eli: Yes, I think so. Those two topics are quite heavily related as well, so I think you've got it right about these topics.
Silvija: Excellent. As I mentioned, it’s an informal half-hour conversation and hopefully, people will find both inspiration and learning from listening to us. I always start by asking who are you and what has made you so? What's your story, Eli?
Eli: It's a big question it’s always how to define yourself. But from my educational background, I have a master's in analytical chemistry. But I've added quite a few things into my head. Communication, innovation, strategy, pedagogics, all the things that I find interesting, I try to learn a little bit more about, so I have quite a broad background when it comes to the educational part. I think I found my interest in technology and to science when I was around 13 years old. I had a teacher that was just amazing and had this energy about technology and science, so I think that was what built my spark going into technology and science. I think I still have that, I just transformed it into artificial intelligence and to different parties and to help others into this. I've been working in the IT business and I've been working with the tech now for quite a few years. I've been working at school and I work with Smart Innovation Norway. I live in Oslo. I have a family here. I have a dog that I like to walk with every day and do a lot of other things as well so.
Silvija: Eli?
Eli: Yeah?
Silvija: I think of you as somebody who is one of the best thinkers we have in Norway when it comes to innovation systems or innovation ecosystems, even better. It has to do with clusters, but it also has to do with basically thinking in multiple directions or stakeholder thinking. This is some of the work that you're doing also now in actually two clusters at the same time in the Halden area. Would you say a little bit about why do you believe that this systemic thinking results in better innovation than if everybody you know does it on their own?
Eli: Yeah, well first I would say that some companies are big enough to do innovation on their own, but most of the companies they don't have the competence, the resources, or the financial muscles to do this, but we see that a lot of them have really great ideas and possible innovation possibilities. I think that putting this into a system, gather competence and get people with other ideas and connections to talk to each other. I think that's really when we get to play very well in this innovation game. To find the really good possibilities, and I would say that in the clusters we always say that we hunt for the things that normally wouldn't happen without being together. That's really part of what we think are in the clusters to hunt for these possibilities, and to do so, we need to have all the different actors within the value chain. We need to have both the customers and those who can solve the problems, we need to have the users, and we need to have the entire ecosystem into this to be able to create this. We also see that the cluster way of working is to combine all these different actors. And since we also have two clusters in Smart Innovation Norway, we also have a very strong combination of those two. Because in the energy market, we see that there is a lot of possibilities within AI and digitalization. But we also saw that to take the innovation or to take the competence from working with the energy markets. It's a lot of applied AI within this, but applied AI could also be used within other areas, so it's also a transformation from just the smart entry markets to also go towards applied AI.
Silvija: They play really well together; I think as well because smart energy markets are a completely new area. Based on new developments in energy production and energy consumption, and a very, very rich application area for applied industrial AI. I also know that you have several researchers and founders that have been entrepreneurs very successfully in one of these areas, so it's nice to put them together perhaps?
Eli: Yes, it is. In Smart Innovation Norway we have quite a strong research team as well as founders. The founders are still very active within Smart Innovation Norway, even though we started in 2003, we still have a lot of enthusiasm from our founders and they’re is still strongly participating both in the clusters and within the company. What's very interesting I think in Smart Innovation Norway, is that we have the perspective of the cluster. We have a lot of companies, we work closely together with our partners to help them innovate, and we also have a strong connection to our research department that applies and work on EU projects to work on national projects. We have a strong bridge from research until applied within the clusters. We have also a very good connection with the Smart City segment that probably would use some of the solutions. We have a venture department that worked with start-up companies and we also have a visualization department. So, we try to make the whole connection from the problem and to work with research with applications, with the companies, with the start-ups, with their customers and try to apply this into the society.
Silvija: Very interesting. The last thing I want to ask you that relates to Eli personally is or professionally as well, I guess, is your involvement with Prospera. Would you say three words about Prospera and what do you do for them?
Eli: Yeah, yeah. I think that a lot more people now who knows about Prospera. I found Prospera I think on Facebook in 2015. And I saw that this is something I have to do. Prospera is a pro bono consultancy company that gives guidance and competence to social entrepreneurs and ideal organizations, and in 2015, I think we were close to 200 consultants. So, I was voluntarily consultancy manager for Prospera and we built it up so. Now I think it’s probably 1200 Consultants and we can help a lot of social entrepreneurs in Norway too. It's the same thing as we see with the start-up companies, we see that social entrepreneurs have competency within and they burn really for what they want to solve, but they might not have the competence within strategy and within business development within communication strategy, so that's where Prospera comes in to set up a team to help the social entrepreneurs to realize their potential, to get specialists that they normally can't afford to buy and to help the social entrepreneurs to grow. It's a lot of fun. It takes a little bit of work, but mostly it's a lot of fun.
Silvija: Very cool. Eli, so tell us a little bit more about what do you understand by applied AI?
Eli: I think for us it's really important that it's applied. That means that it's close to getting into the market, and it's usable, and the opposite of this is more research-related AI. We need both, but we also need the applied part to be sure that we can make a service that is helpful to people to be able to use this to solve some problems and. We have a company in our cluster that uses AI to check the power nets. To find the possibilities there so they don't have to send out one person to climb the power grids to check what's wrong and you can use AI to look at this and to find out what's wrong. You probably could solve it also without someone risking their life to do so. I think that's a really good example of how it's applied and how it's possible to use this.
Silvija: I'll try to fill in from my perspective there so. I can never hold back in these conversations, so I've been looking at how US, especially Silicon Valley, and China are working with AI now, and I think that services related to some of the biggest universities in the US and couple in Canada have done probably done most of the heavy lifting in defining these new algorithms that now define the deep learning and neural net-based AI. But the application of this to real-life everyday problems is led by China now. And I have a feeling that you know they're focusing very much on. Let's not try to invent yet another algorithm. Let's use the algorithms, refine them. Actually, they've come up with some very cool improvements to these algorithms, but it's about getting as much data as possible and then applying these known algorithms to the data that will improve the traffic or the factory efficiency, or the healthcare levels. I think it's in this application of what's already known algorithmically to the new data that the magic really happens, and I'd like your comment on Norway's unique opportunities here because I have a feeling that we are one of the societies in the world with most digital infrastructure in society, but also in industry.
Eli: Yes, I think so. I think that Norway has a good possibility with the use of data, we have good possibilities there because I think that we see the value in how to gather data and I don't think we've reached the potential yet to how to use It, but we have some traditions I think on gathering data. I think that one important question or one important topic here is the trust in society, that a lot of us are willing to share our data between companies and also from the public sector that they are willing to share data. I've been following this HUNT research in Trøndelag for some years. The possibility to use this even though it has stranded on several places, I think that this is something that we can build upon the willingness to gather data, but I think that the industry as well. Since we are quite a small company and most of the industries rely on each other and especially with the cluster thinking, we have different parts in the value chain and the possibilities to build upon each other's data, that's really important. I was thinking when you when you asked this question. I went to Iceland once, and I think that they even have a stronger background there to share data and the willingness to share it. They did gather data on all personal genetic data. To me, it’s really interesting to do so. It's a factor as well that they're able to do so. It might be that after Iceland or some other countries that Norway would probably also have the possibility to work towards those kinds of ideas.
Silvija: I think it has to do with understanding the value of data. I'm a little bit kind of exasperated by hearing that data is the new oil. Because I'm missing the next sentence and it is “Well, what's the engine?”. If data is the oil, then how are we going to use it, and I think your clusters are a very good example of those kinds of engines. You take data, you make sure that data is gathered, whether it's about energy markets, energy grid, energy distribution or production, or whether it is some industrial application. I don't know if the companies like Borg or some of the most interesting tech companies in your area have started being data-driven or not, but to me, this is a really unique opportunity for Norway. I think Iceland has genetic data. They are really brilliant. They have a population I think about 1/10 of Norway's, but Norway has almost as good data in a different sector, and that's finance. We have this thing called Altinn where all the financial data flows related to the public sector and individuals are kept, and I haven't seen that kind of system anywhere else, so do you know why we’re not prouder of it? Is one of the questions.
Eli: Yeah, yeah. I'm actually extremely proud of Altinn and what we have done with the financial sector. Norwegians have quite a high expectancy of this to be solved and they don't really see the innovation in this. And I think that especially Skatteetaten and Altinn have been really great examples on how to innovate through the public sector and to gather data and the possibilities to work on this and. And you also mentioned that companies are data-driven. I think that it's probably a lot easier for younger companies to become data-driven if they had this as a business model already than to transform well-established companies to become purely data-driven because that's really a heavy transformation to go through that, but for the larger companies to get the ideas from the start-ups and also from the public sector. Because the public sector has really changed a lot. I can't remember. The last time I sent in my tax report in a written way. 10-15 years ago, I can't remember.
Silvija: For several years, we've had everything set up and you just have to sign up, but they have been so good at working with the user experience. You know there will be questions now which are easy to answer and help you to fill out the form in an understandable way. I had to report property abroad. We have an apartment in Montenegro, and the way that this works now it's just impressive I thought
Eli: Yeah, and I think part of what makes it work is not only the data and gathering information, but it also the user experience too and I have also added into my education some design thinking with strategic innovation and to change your mind to work from the user side. Not necessarily that the user would tell you what they need, but to find out where are the pinpoints? Where are the happy situations? What kind of needs do you have on how to solve this in a good way. And I think that especially this year's tax report has changed side as well. Moving towards, for me as a user, to be sure that they have all they need and for me to be easily guided through this makes it a lot smoother and if we can put the data and the applications and the user-interface into these kinds of systems. So, you don't see it as a hassle, it's almost a joy to go through this because it suits you very well I think. That's a good goal for a lot of us. It's probably a lot of places we need to try to get that kind of movement to assure that we can have these kinds of applications, but I think that optimism Is a really good example. To look after, yeah.
Silvija: Very cool. Now Eli, could I ask you to help me understand what smart energy markets are and why we need them?
Eli: Yeah, it's not really an easy question. Smart energy markets are a lot of things and we have been discussing whether smart energy markets it's the only thing or is it something more into this? it's smart energy system. It's smart energy distribution and it’s smart energy storage. It's a lot of topics related to smart energy and in Norway, we have a tradition of being an energy-producing country. Not only oil and gas but also waterpower. We are at the forefront of in electrification of our industry. Electrification in our distribution nets in transportation, and so it's the smart entry markets is really about how to connect the energy. How to store it and how to use it and how to predict it. Especially how to predict what kind of energy needs are there?
For example, you can take a building and see what kind of energy needs do you have for this building? For example, a university campus where you have a lot of people during the daytime and none during the night, you can use digitalization of the energy to make this building be ventilated enough and hot enough when there are people there and not to use a lot of energy when it's not a lot of people there. It's all those kinds of energy fluctuations and needs that we look into within the smart energy markets.
Silvija: Yeah, I'm thinking with our infrastructure going smart where the roads are going to be more aware of who's driving and how much are they used, etc. Buildings the same thing with Internet of Things. I think that the energy network and the energy market are going to become very integrated with everything digital. So having control over that critical infrastructure for society will probably be one of the most important tasks for people who are responsible for our safety and our growth in a way.
Eli: I think so too. I don't think it's something that people in their daily life think of. But it's really at the core of our daily life, the energy and all those kinds of data that goes through. The infrastructure energy is a part of this infrastructure of course. Water and transportation as well this is an important part of our infrastructure and makes a big difference every day that we don't think of. It's my opinion.
Silvija: So Ellie, I want to ask you very briefly also about the interaction of public and private sectors. So you have in your area a company called eSmart, a very interesting company in this sector. I used to work on the board of a company called Enoro. Which is working more towards national energy grid providers, and my experience is that there is more impatience for innovation in the private sector, the smaller companies, and the big companies. How can we make this interaction work even better? You have worked on the borderline between these two for many years now what? What do we do?
Eli: First I would say that the private companies have the drive to do so, and also eSmart as you mentioned is very eager to go abroad and to take a world-leading part in this what I think is important is to connect the public and the private sector. Because the public sector is a big owner and also has the muscles, I think to be able to drive these transformations. But the first thing is to let them talk together and to work together. We would normally then try to put up an innovation project together with the public and the private sector to find good solutions, and one of the challenges there I think is the difference in speed. Sometimes that we have the private sector is probably have a higher speed than the public sector, but the public sector has a different mandate to ensure that everyone gets the power they need. I think to have some good projects together and to work together on this, and to get familiar with how they think and to get familiar with how they work to be able to commit this and to just to share competence between the companies, I think that's probably one of the solutions. This is something we also work within the clusters because we both have private companies and also public companies. So, we try to make these connections within the cluster.
Silvija: I think you're onto something very, very important here, and I think it has to do with also perhaps giving them different roles where the public companies, the large publicly financed companies, or owned companies can be more a part of the problem in a way. They could be asking for innovation. There would be platform innovating if you wish. They would be asking the big question and then the private companies could plugin into this platform with their solutions and so the public sector is in a way the connecting sector. While this is the point solution sector.
Eli: I think so, and I think that’s where we are today as well. We see that we probably haven't gathered all the. Points yet, but the platform together with the applications and the possibilities from the private sector. I think that's probably a way to move forward. I think that this part will also accelerate because we see that a lot of companies, especially start-ups, have really good ideas on how to improve and how to use energy data for a lot of different things. You can use this to how to place a new industry? You mentioned the battery sector. So, if we're going to find new places too, have a factory creating batteries. Then we have companies also finding where the best place to do this? Because they can gather all the data within the energy and find the best places to place such a factory.
Silvija: I know that there’s this really good cluster in Kristiansand called Eyde that are also looking into batteries and so I'd like to hear you a little bit on potential collaborations between clusters on this. And when you said battery, my head jumped to Tesla as well. I believe that having a battery in every house is going to be something that we all have 10 years from now. Does Norway have some unique opportunities to, for example, take that space. and claim an international position.
Eli: I think so. I see that having the tradition as an energy producer, I think that moving into batteries is really one of the next things to go to, and I see that a lot of companies and we have a lot of working with battery technology and battery re-usage. How to be sure that they are circular batteries? I think it's a. It's a lot of potential there to have a world in position within battery technology both in producing, but also in developing batteries. You mentioned cluster-to-cluster cooperation. We have a tradition to be able to share competence between the clusters because we don't have that many clusters. All the clusters are actually interested in finding the best solutions for our partners or to help our partners to grow. It's not necessarily done within a special cluster, but sometimes we need to make good connections to for example Eyde-klyngen in southern Norway because they have the competence of battery. We have the competence on how to connect the batteries and how to use this, so I think it's a good connection there. We also have a project now on offshore wind, and when we produce the energy offshore, then we also need to store it. We also need to put it into the grid, we also need to make all these connections between and the offshore companies and the energy companies
Silvija: Very cool. What is your hope for your sector in five years from now? Where would you really like to be?
Eli: I think that we’ll see, I wouldn't say exponential growth within companies, because that's not true, but I see that there's a lot of series growth. I think that we will still see that in five tears, and I think that people would probably be a more natural part of all companies to use AI. So, I think that it’ll be more into every company business model that we use AI, and I think that we have gathered most of the competence and the companies within the AI cluster to be able to grow together. It’s not a national mastership. We have to compete internationally. I think that together the Norwegian companies can show our strength and also go into other countries. I think that's where we are in five years. I hope so, at least, to be able to use this within different sectors.
Silvija: Eli, you have some brilliant AI-minds around you. And then there are others in other clusters and other university areas etc. But how do we get everybody on this train? This is a question about lifelong learning and what should we push people to learn more about in order to be able to participate in this AI revolution?
Eli: Well, I think that most people would need to know more about digitalization and to know the core elements. I was thinking about the elements of AI course, but I think that might not be the solution for everyone. But to get some basic core competence within coding I would is very interesting. You've tried Micro:bit to program with?
Silvija: I'll tell you a story very briefly on that, so I was a jury member on a hackathon that Statens kartverk. The public chart provider in Norway. A brilliant, wonderful company and they organized an annual hackathon on different 17 different sets of publicly owned data in Hønefoss. I was there as jury and I had to take my kids. It was a weekend and they said “Sure, it's great because we are going to have “Kids’a koder””, this coding class for kids and that's the first time I actually saw Micro:bit in practice. I've seen kind of videos and I thought it was so fun, yeah, and I'm wondering why don't we do that for grownups as well?
Eli: I'm thinking that we need to do that for grownups? Because I’ve done it myself, it's a lot of fun and you know. Just to write your name, make it visible, just make an arrow, it takes you 5 minutes. I think to be able to do so, so it's a lot of fun.
Silvija: It helps people understand programming?
Eli: Yeah, and I think it just to have something tangible to get into. I think that's a good start and I think that that's probably for. For everyone to do and of course, we had to also fill in with all within all areas. We both need high competence within some areas, but most people also need to find out that coding and digitalization. It's really not that it is not a black box. It's not magical, it's something that it's possible to learn and to understand more about that to have that perspective, to be able to re-educate. Most of us, I think to be able to understand a little more. About that and I about lifelong learning as well, I think that. when I finished my Masters's degree, I kind of thought that I don't know the education. I need it and then. I think it took me one year or something that I realized I have to fill it; I think that we need to fill in with our competence throughout our whole life.
Silvija: I love the elements of AI and I love you know the Coursera MIT but you know some of it is too deep and some of it is too narrow and some of it so. I think we need to combine these things and as you say we need to mix match and never stop.
Eli: Yeah, I think so and to have it in bite-size chunks. I think it's also important that you don't have to. You know to start a 2-year program too. To do so, you can if you want to, but it to have. You know the shorter parts and to be able to do when you're on the on. The train or just to listen to in a podcast like this I think that's also very important pieces in the puzzle.
Silvija: Eli, the last question is really about you and lifelong learning. You started as a chemist, basically as you said, analytical chemistry. And now you're into AI and the data and the energy markets? How do you build up the courage to go out of your deep area and become this shaped person that knows a lot about one thing and many, many things a little bit
Eli: Yeah, I think that for me my master’s in analytical chemistry, of course, gave me a lot of competence within that field, but also you see the connections to other areas from mathematics to statistics, to physics. So, you realize that there's a lot more to learn. I've been lucky to work in places that I'm able to learn through my work, but also able to fill in with the shorter educations in this to move. I think that it's probably not courage, but I would say it’s the curiosity that has driven me towards this. Because I see that there's a lot of things happening, and I can take all of the competence I have and build it on, so it's a red line from where I started to where I am now. It might seem like a big leap from analytical chemistry to the entry markets, but it's a stone-by-stone build, and I think it's more the curiosity to find out the new ways and meet new people and you can always learn. You can always take some of the components you have already to put into this puzzle.
Silvija: I agree with you. I'm a mathematician by trade, and for many years I was very shy about it. You know, when I looked for a job in Norway after my Ph.D. people even looked at me, I think, with scepticism and thought she must be difficult to work with or too nerdy. I was very theoretical and now, after 10 years of actually dabbling more with business than with tech, I see how much that theory helps me understand some of the long-term more important drivers of where this is going. And I've been reading and thinking that the next decade is going to be as much. As the previous one was the decade of logics and programming, the next one will be the decade of AI and chemistry. I think we're going into the age of chemistry where you know all this digital applied to the biological, the medical, the physical world we live in. I think your ability to draw in things like deep understanding of processes in chemistry with all this other stuff you've put in is exactly what makes you attractive and unique.
Eli: Yeah, and it's a good way to look at it because we’ve just started to get into the more technical areas and now, we see. That it's possible to also move into other areas that traditionally we didn't think of these possibilities. But I see that we are going in that direction. I think it's really interesting to move in that direction and it might be a bit scary as well because we would always need new challenges and new ethical problems that needs to be solved, but I agree with you. I think this is something that we will see forward and I would hope that this is also the decade for going into this, but we will also bring what? We've learned in the last decade.
Silvija: So, the practical question of what's next? How can people who want to somehow participate in your applied AI revolution contact you? What could they do?
Eli: Well, they can contact us in Cluster for Applied AI within Smart Innovation Norway, and to just call me, send me an email or find us on Twitter. All the contacts. We would be happy to talk to everyone that wants to discuss AI, how to apply it, or if you have a problem to solve and you think that AI could be the possibility then just contact us in Cluster for Applied AI in Smart Innovation Norway.
Silvija: You like problems that need to be solved.
Eli: Yeah, we like problems. I think that that's also one of the drivers. For us to find new solutions.
Silvija: Eli Haugerud from Smart Innovation Norway. Thank you so much for presenting your two super cool clusters to us and inviting us to work together on applying AI.
Eli: Thank you so much.
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