Velkommen til Lørn.Tech - en læringsdugnad om teknologi og samfunn. Med Silvija Seres og venner.

Silvija Seres:  Hello and welcome to Lørn Oslo Innovation Week. My name is Silvija Seres and my guest today is Johan Bronckhorst, who is the business developer at a company called Digital XBO. Welcome, Johan.

Johan Bronkhorst: Thanks so much, Silvia. It's great to be here.

Silvija: I read your name and to me it could be a perfectly Norwegian name. But it is not?

Johan: No, I'm very glad that it could be one, but it is actually a South African name. So that's cool. But you're pronouncing it right. A lot of people actually go in with Joanne, which I'm like, that's not at all the same thing for me. It's great that you got it right, which is great that you were able to distinguish that.

Silvija: So it's a good Boer name, basically. Dutch origins, I guess.

Johan: I expect so, yeah. Definitely Germanic. So I believe it would be Dutch.

Silvija: Yeah. And you're based in Norway now.

Johan: Correct. Moved to Oslo January of 2020 and moved from Cape Town in South Africa. So all the way south to as far north as I could go within Proptech.

Silvija: Right. Yeah. And you did that because of our sunny weather, I guess.

Johan: Of course. Honestly, working in 40 degrees isn't always as great for the working environment. So I love the weather here, to be honest.

Silvija: Especially this year! Something's going on here as well and hopefully better, right? Not many countries in the world can, what should I say, get advantages from global warming. But perhaps Norway is one of the few that can for sure. So, Johan, I'm going to say just a few words about our conversation in the series and then we'll get into why we're talking. So we are doing a series with the Oslo Innovation Week event as a sort of a warm up to the digital events that will be happening during that week of October. And we're really keen on getting people to understand the breadth of the topics, but also the really exciting perspectives that will be shared there. There are five main tracks and one of the tracks is called The Nordic Model, and that's the one that we are discussing in this conversation. And I guess with that, I'm just going to ask you to tell us a little bit about who's Johan and if he has any eccentric hobbies other than being South African. And why do you care about the Nordic model?

Johan: Yeah, I think it's sort of who I am. Yeah. I'm of course, if South African can be a hobby, but I guess one of them. But other than that, outside of work, I recently found during COVID that I like cooking really difficult recipes. I don't know why it's something about having to play things and having to come up with something interesting that challenges me in a way that I don't yet comprehend. And so I love it because I need to figure it out.

Silvija: What's a difficult recipe, by the way?

Johan: Oh, I don't consider anything that you can just mash together and have a bunch of flavors is necessarily difficult. I like being able to pair certain flavors. And so if I find something with four or five ingredients that three I know and two I don't, then I've got to understand how to pair them and also plate them. Right. There's a bit of an artistic design involved there and it's something I'm not familiar with, at least in the culinary world. So that's what I would consider difficult.

Silvija: But very cool.

Johan: It says something a bit about me, in the sense that I'm someone who is curious. That's if you looked at what I do outside of work, it really mixes in with the way that I work in the sense that I like to look for new things that are challenging. I try a new instrument every year, a musical instrument if I can. And these are the things that kind of keep me going, keep me alive outside of working hours.

Silvija: What's your instrument this year? In the last year?

Johan: At least, I've put in a bit more time on the harmonica. I've spent some time on it before but I haven't yet. Yes, that's the one. What is that in Norwegian?

Silvija: I'm not a native Norwegian and if I'm correct, it's harmonica perhaps.

Johan: That sounds like it could be close enough. So it's been that. But in the past it's been everything that I could possibly find. If it's weird, I like it. That's the idea.

Silvija: I have a crush on a scientist and the developer, a VR guy, Jaron Lanier from Silicon Valley. And he's one of the best people in the world, I think, thinking about the whole ethics of where we're going. But at the same time, I think his mother was a professional musician. And he has this thing about instruments where he tries old instruments. He's very interesting because he's very much against digitalized music. He says you lose the kind of the context, the spatial effect of the proper instrument. And so I think you have, you have a great time reading him or knowing him.

Johan: Yeah, for sure. I'll go check it out. Definitely sounds very cool.

Silvija: It's not what we do with instruments, but what the instruments do with us.

Johan: That's very true. I think that goes for a lot of things in a way. And yeah, but that's a cool quote. I'll keep that in mind next time.

Silvija: So, what are you doing here? What is Digital XBO?

Johan: Yeah. So Digital XBO is a spin out from OBOS. And the idea is that in the property environment today, you have so many new tools in the market. The latest count is somewhere near 9000. And of course when you are shopping for new solutions in a development company or as a contractor, you would want the things that are obviously best for your workflow. And what we found is that nobody has one tool to rule them all. Nobody has this one tool to be able to do everything on site because flexibility has become kind of a commodity. I want to use one tool for X and I want to use another tool for Y. The problem is, of course, that a lot of these kind of tools are closed off in the sense of sharing information and communication flow. And so and what ends up happening is you've got this kind of timebomb that is going to go off at some point where all of these shiny solutions that you've incorporated don't speak to each other, and suddenly the cost of that inefficiency is going to be extremely high. Scary thing today is that people don't even know what that cost is like because they haven't really introduced all of these solutions. They're gearing up for it. So what we are doing is we've created kind of a one platform through which you can add all of these solutions that are relevant to you. So you've got flexibility. It doesn't take you all this time to integrate one by one. And I mean, if we speak about those integrations, one of them can cost millions and it can take plenty and plenty of months, as we've seen in some of our research. So we're really here to take all of that information, all that communication into one dashboard for you, and then you can access everything without having to lose the time that you would have previously.

Silvija: So it is a data platform with some functionality, especially focused on property.

Johan: Correct. You are actually hitting the nail on the head. You effectively have a project overview, a tool overview through the project list that you have. And of course, once you start gathering that data, we are able to give you an industry overview. So you're able to actually compare yourself with the workflow of the industry, and that allows you to see, Oh, am I really slow in this part of the value chain during construction, maybe it's during signing contracts, maybe it's during claim processing. And so we are able to show you where, why and if it's a problem, of course. So that's the main thing.

Silvija: So I guess this is a very complex market as well. So there are all the suppliers and all the materials and all the new tools and all the sales and marketing parts of the value chain. You go across the whole value chain. Is that what you're trying to kind of smooth out?

Johan: The value chain could be considered from many different angles. You could consider this from a sustainability angle, which we are more and more. I think if you want to go into terminology in the circular field of economics and we are in the sustainable field of construction. So for us, the value chain is considered during the phase where someone signs an agreement to purchase or kind of rent a property to the point where if it's a, for instance, a newbuild, where it's getting built through the phases while it is in construction, the hand over to the new homeowner. Then of course, there's a claim process that can last. In Norway, it's about up to five years. So during this entire process of construction, we are really intensely involved. If you take it from a tenant in the kind of more commercial and retail industry sense, you would have a property manager who's got to manage all of this data and information while things are being maintained, while things are being cleaned up or rebuilt. And for them, that's kind of how we would solve that issue.

Silvija: Very cool. So I want to chat with you a little bit about this whole new kind of change of how we think about our urban spaces. So there is a lot of discussion on smart cities and the whole data driven city life and who should own the data and how we should connect this very complex system. And I've always been wondering, should we not be talking more about unique and happy cities or unique and happy habitats?

Johan: I think that is an important thing to understand. And it's as much a problem in the software world as it is in the property world. And the reason why I say that is because you can have the absolute best technical solution software on the market, but if you don't understand your users, you will fail. There is no chance that the market will understand how to even adopt you. Your product is going to fall by the wayside in property. It's the same if you don't think about what actually make homeowners and tenants happy, then your building can be as great as you want it to be. But it might not be the building for people. And that's a differentiator that I think needs to be taken seriously if we want to talk about creating happy places, sustainable places, these green environments. So it's an important one, but I think it is a lot more important than just the words on paper, right? We could so easily end up in a situation where it becomes one of these kind of virtuous signals being sent out saying, oh, we're suddenly a sustainability company or we're a green company, and look at how we're providing certification. But is it really creating the spaces that we are promising to people, or is it only kind of making some law or policy maker happy? That's, I think, the difference. What are you really doing? What are you saying you're doing is that's two different things, right?

Silvija: And why are you talking about the Nordic model? Where does that come both into your work and Oslo Innovation Week?

Johan: Yeah. So I think from our perspective, we work of course across the industry in the sense that with the different customers we have and all the different proptech tools that we work with, we've seen how the Nordic model plays a very, very strong role within collaboration, transparency, this idea of the sharing culture which is held quite high within the property world. And I think because our team is also quite international in a sense, we are able to pick up on things as kind of external to the Nordic model coming from South Africa. I see things that I can recognize and I see things that are strange to me and new to me. And I think the Nordic model, as I said, this idea of the fact that you can look up someone's salary, for instance, is very, very unique. That is a sense of trust. Now, of course, it's not that everyone goes and does that, but the fact that that is out there, that information is out there is unique. The fact that you have property companies going out for bidding and then afterwards, even if one specific property company won, they would still share bidding information and kind of concepts and designs and say, Hey, well, maybe this can help you even though I lost. Maybe this can help you. I think that's very unique. And for a market like the Nordics, where it is a bit smaller in comparison to Europe and the US, for example, it is extremely critical that that nature of sharing, that openness is held high continuously. If that is lost, you'll sit with a small market that is closed off from each other. How would anyone ever learn in that kind of environment? So that for me is supercritical and that's why I love to talk about it.

Silvija: So there are two ways to skin this cat, I'm thinking. One is that we can talk about why it has become so and we can talk about the governance model we have in Norway with the workers unions and the employers unions and the state in a very kind of close collaboration and that culture of trust and so on. The other way to think about it is that this is an exceptionally rich and technologically able country with some also exceptionally high requirements when it comes to construction. We have a lot of geography and we have a lot of climate and not only in the good sense or easy sense, so we have to be very good. And so there is kind of a space to compete. It's not a race to the bottom. It's a race to the top in some ways. So which do you think is more important of these two?

Johan: I would say it's that really for me, it's a complex question, right? It's loaded in a lot of ways. But I think maybe if we look at it from this perspective. Going into a place that could be set up in a way where it's not open to collaboration, not open to scalability, to speed. Those policies can kill a lot of innovation. And I think we see it in as much as you would see within a corporation with a lot of bureaucracy and a lot of kind of politics that could easily prevent quick, scalable innovation. You could see that in a country as well. So if we're talking from that perspective, I would say that Norway has been increasingly introducing new measures within its policies and focusing on the right aspects like data. For example, data sharing has lately been kind of a big topic, right? Of course it is globally, but Norway is also choosing to meet that challenge head on. And I think putting the right guidelines in and access in place is what would help Norway to really push forward. This is the main thing. The moment you take away too much access and you only trust in what is inside, you are limited and you will go in kind of blind into a global economy that I think you would very quickly, quickly realize your limitations, but it might be too late to do anything about it. So at this point in time, I think it is really critical for a kind of openness and access to be held at the forefront of the focus for policymakers and also just in companies. What is what really would help companies grow? Talent attraction is the main thing, right? How do you attract talent? As you said in the beginning, maybe the climate and the landscape and the opportunities aren't as attractive to all, but of course you want it to be right. And it's just maybe a matter of perspective and a matter of access that could be solved through policy.

Silvija: So I have to do one more round on that because I'm also an immigrant to Norway. I came about 30 years ago from old Yugoslavia, which doesn't exist anymore. And I was kind of forced by my parents, to be honest. But it took me many years to realize that I've probably landed in the most attractive country in the world. And, you know, you wouldn't think that on a rainy November or October day, but I would.

Silvija: I actually don't even know if proper Norwegians realize how hard it is to weather these long winters. It's not the cold, it's the dark, you know. And but if you look at the quality of your life and if you look at the balance of being able to have a really interesting job and the really interesting maybe not paid as much as you would be in Silicon Valley or in the city, but you're paid more than well enough and all your needs are taken care of in addition with this by this amazing welfare state. And then you have time and energy and space for your interesting personal life, whatever that means. And that combination works for women and men alike. And I think that as a talent magnet for dual track professional families for anyone who actually values both sides of their life. You don't have to choose just work or just life. I think it's a completely under communicated side of Norway. I don't know if you agree.

Johan: Definitely. I mean, when I speak to people about where they think the economies are ripe for their industry or for their kind of roles in their jobs, it's quite spread across the world. And you always hear the typical answers. You know, it could be across the UK or maybe there's Amsterdam or recently Luxembourg had an interesting influx, Canada and so forth. But the thing about this is people are were really shocked to hear that we decided on Norway and for us it was clear we came here and we recognized the shift in the industry. We recognize that it's ready for startup culture to really take off. And you know, both my wife and I are in this realm. She's a UX and product designer. And in my state, of course, I'm across from c-suite levels to business developer roles. So it really is something that is under communicated in the sense that nobody else knows about it. And I wonder why. Because we have movements like Innovation Norway that I was in touch with in Cape Town. So it's something that I think should be promoted a lot more. It should be put out there a lot more. But it's again, it really comes down to talent retention. How do you retain talent within a country? Because, as you said, what happens over a long winter? Somebody just leave or do they go? No, they can weather the storm. They can have enough of a passion for everything else that is there to offer.

Silvija: I think that's a very important point. And this is all also part of the Nordic model that we are discussing. But I visited Spotify not that long ago and I was asking them, you know, so how do you deal with the talent attraction and how they're growing very fast and how do you find all the other people you need? It was a really interesting answer that stuck with me. So he says, Well, our problem is actually not talent attraction because lots of people want to work for us. We have a great brand, right. And actually, it's not talent retention either. It's, you know, people everybody wants to stay. Our problem is that we are growing so fast and the jobs we have are changing so fast that people are not moving fast enough in the job that they have. So I think this problem is going to be facing many companies because of the exponential rate of change around us. I think the content of just about every job will be changing faster than the replacement rate. If you're planning on finding new heads and pushing out the old heads. And so the really, really important part of the Nordic model is also this continuous development of the people that you have, it's not just finding talents and bringing them in. It's redeveloping, reskilling the talents that will. And this is where Norway and the Nordics have actually quite a lot of political experience.

Johan: I'm sure, just to touch on what you're saying around how people are actually changing up their game within companies today, especially with the exponential rate of change and consideration, I would again back to the sentiment that flexibility has become a commodity. If you are not able to be flexible, then of course you're going to be left behind. I see it in the work that we do. If a company commits to just simply one tool to do absolutely everything on the field, they'll put all the time and effort into it. And in five years, they might recognize, Oh, this thing isn't sharing data, and suddenly we're outdated again, and now we've got to go through a whole loop. Similarly, I think companies have a responsibility to acknowledge this rate of change. If your employees are struggling to grow, of course, then it is up to you to understand why. And I think in as much as it's great to be able to find the right talent attraction, how do you have kind of talent maintenance in a way, if we can call it that? And growth, because of course, it is as much a responsibility within a company to be able to be flexible and as it is for an employee to take on that flexibility, which might be new to them. I would just equate this to if a corporate forever says These are our rules and we cannot change them, you will get stuck, you will get left behind. Whereas if you start opening up and having more interesting things happening, like recently, there's been a lot of talk around this kind of innovation or founders leaving in corporations, right? We're able to say, right, I'm going out to attempt to start a company, but the corporation will then accept me back in if this fails or not. And this is something that came out of Sweden I think was the first time I heard about it. And this is like a way I think part of that growth and flexibility is changing through the small things that are introduced to kind of old ideas.

Silvija: Yeah, I agree. So if we just keep on that track for a minute, corporate innovation through ventures and new ventures is a very important topic for a long time. And we've been muddling through and not really getting many places. But I think that's a brilliant counter-examples, and by the way, I really like what my boss is doing. I really like what, for example, DNV is doing. But in general, you are also a little bit skeptical of the lack of vision in the corporate IVC management.

Johan: I would say there's a big room for improvement there. And the reasoning for this is that typically if you look at corporate venture capital, it's a lot less risky to put your money behind something that is mature, that is already established in the market. And given that there's a lot of R&D opportunities for corporates through startups. From my perspective, they are too quick to say it needs to mature fast. I think if you consider the fact that a corporate venture capital wing could also consider the ROI on their investments from an early stage and then get a greater return as well on that investment. That to me is kind of the golden ticket. And what is baffling for me is the fact that there is so much money that goes into R&D projects internally and sometimes these projects fail. And I've seen this both in South Africa, I've seen it in Norway, I see it in other countries. And what is crazy is that those amounts of money go kind of just lost within internal projects. But then if you ask them to spend a 10th or a 20th on an investment or vehicle for investment, such as a startup, then suddenly it becomes risky. It's like, Oh no, how do we trust these people to be successful? And they throw all these percentages out. Do you know how many startups fail? Like, yes, but do you know how many of them succeed? It's just for me. Interesting. If you just take the monetary value of what is happening, I think they're losing out a lot. And I am starting to see signs that people are a lot more open to start a lot earlier. I'm hoping those signs will lead into something that can come to fruition, where we will see corporate venture capital going to early stage startups supporting not just with speaking to decision makers, but actually in the financial sense of the word as well.

Silvija: Yeah. I want to mention one company here, and it's Cognite. And I think that they are brilliant, but for completely other reasons than what people think. Most think about them as industrial big data, heavy asset related big data. A big data platform is something that many people are doing and these guys are running it on two successful big data platforms from before. But I think the real brilliance here is corporate venture capital. So they are owned by the Aker system. That's their original money. That is corporate venture done right? Because you don't just give them money, you actually give them an internal market. And because you're a market and they get to test their product and they get to prove to the world that they are heavy duty ready, the growth and big international customers come much more easily. And it amazes me how seldom this is done, because very often large corporates will create smaller or invest in these incubated startups. But they will keep them off their critical business model. But if you put them in there and you are a customer, then the whole thing becomes this incredibly active vitamin boost for your digital growth. So I wish we did more of that. And I'm hoping that companies like Uber are actually doing that. So basically eating your own dog food and changing as you do.

Johan: So that is super important. I think we've seen the work, of course, with SpaceX Maker, usually successful.  And I think in addition to SpaceX Maker, there was, of course, also Unlock that was made use by the Ubers tenants and owners. And I think in the case of Unlock, that scalability in the market is a kind of critical component to their success. And that's something that will continuously, of course, be a massive gain for any company. Right. If you are being used also by the company who decides to go in partnership with you or invest in you. But what you're saying is, I think the challenge here being that if you were to introduce a solution off the bat into your entire corporation, what is the cost of that disruption? And I think there's a lot of risk aversion still in there. I think a lot of corporates are afraid because suddenly I introduced this tool and now everyone gets used to it and maybe it doesn't work out. But I think if they start giving access to these companies and testing them with the decision makers, but also with the actual people on the ground who would use a solution. Maybe it's a small department that starts out by using this new solution that's being introduced. Then they'll start to kind of through the workshops, understand, Oh, this is the way it could work, this is the way it could fail. And of course, it's a win win, right? Because ultimately you invested in this kind of tool that you believe in, you are also testing it and you're part of the roadmap. So now suddenly things are also kind of working for you. So in time that collaboration and access, I think might be the key to solving this access to the market within the sense of eating your own dog food.

Silvija: Right. Interesting. So now towards the end of our allotted time, Johan, I want to ask you one of the examples you said that you really like internationally is the Amadeus Airline platform. Yes. And that's actually quite an old platform, but it was an immense innovation. Tell us why you like it. Yeah.

Johan: I think what kind of for us, this has always been part of our story, right? In the sense that we looked towards a company that was able to bring a lot of third party entities together and a lot of partnership kind of tools together on one platform, on one database. And in the sense of Amadeus, it's to us impressive because it's this idea of open, it's data driven, it's enabling this idea of simpler business processes. And that to me is incredible because of the complexity that we've seen in what it takes to integrate with all of these partners because just saying something like simplifying a business process, that in itself is complex. So what is nice is that we find it inspirational that they were able to do that without being competition to the tools that they were integrating with. And that for us is also a goal. Right? That's why I like to kind of talk about them, because we aren't out there to take away the business of the companies we integrate with. We're there to actually give them a greater share of the market and to make them more accessible to companies who can now be early adopters. So Amadeus, I think, set up a great idea a long time ago. As you said, it's an old idea. So obviously it was built in a very different way to the way we build things today. It's got to be a lot more lean and we've got to have the whole fail fast idea, right where that scares a lot of people. But the reality is and you just get the answer a lot quicker as well. So yeah, I mean, I can look through one system. Why would I have to go to every other site to find information for every airline? You know, it's just I think Amadeus is great for that reason.

Silvija: I'm wondering if we really take a step back and realize or thought about or appreciated how much a system like Amadeus has actually changed the whole industry of airlines by allowing anyone anywhere to book check availability on. The standard dynamic pricing. And I think that's through a system like that, the whole flying business has become more accessible to the whole world. So, you know, I guess your project, if successful, might also lift the whole construction industry from being super fragmented. I think you mentioned 9000 players just in one country to do something that is more dynamic and more connected.

Johan: Yes. So I think on that note, it's something that is referred to typically as a virtuous cycle. And I think this is something that, as you said, it's much larger than we are. And I think we fully acknowledge that. And that's why there's this spirit of collaboration already intact, because we understand that this thing has got to be able to inspire and carry on within the set up and the way that tech works today. So the whole idea of the virtuous cycle is that you're creating something that of course gives a win win scenario in the true sense of that you're actually able to help other people grow what they are providing. And that is what I believe is really changing an industry, right? It's never one tool that really changes the industry in as much as it is the way that we work with these tools, the way that we adopt them within our daily use, that's something that really changes and makes an impact. So I believe that that's really what we are, what we are after. And the 9000 tools, those are global. But if you're working at this scale, there’s also working at the scale of global airline companies. Right. And as you said, you sitting in your home can access all of these different booking systems through a single booking system. And I think the efficiency model there is just fantastic. And that's something that when I say fantastic, it's a little bit of an odd word because it feels so little in describing something so big. But yeah, that's at least that's my sentiment around it.

Silvija: Yeah, one of the original platforms really, so we give a lot of credit to Uber and Airbnb and Apple and so on. But I don't know how old Amadeus is, but it's, like 20 years, perhaps approximate.

Johan: I'm also not exactly sure of the exact date. I know the story and I know the passion behind it, but I haven't checked the date.

Silvija: We’re towards the end of our time, and I'd really like you to comment. You recommended, I think, a book called Weird by Olga Kazan. Yeah. What is it?

Johan: Yeah, I saw one of the sea level financial heads in Norway post about this. I can't remember exactly who, but they have to get the credit for it. But I saw the book and so it's quite interesting. And the reason why I decided to read it is because he said even as a Norwegian, he felt that he's in a society that is very much looking inwards and he never felt as someone who would just look inwards. He was always kind of on the outside skirts of his game and as a result, it led him to become a leader in the industry. And I thought that's quite interesting because for me as a South African being incorporated into society and kind of starting to assimilate in some ways and finding myself, I found that this book really helped see the stories of other people, how they fit into societies that are initially they could seem like they could easily fit in, but there might be some really interesting differences. And I think for founders, you know, they're not your typical citizens already. So whether you are of the culture or not, if you're a founder, you're already someone who thinks differently. So fitting in or standing out in a community that might not yet understand your solutions or understand your ideologies can be really challenging. But as a founder, you can't waver. You know, you can't fall by the wayside of confidence. You have to believe in your ideas. You've got to be able to express what you're trying to build in a way that motivates people towards change. And so this book has been really interesting. The author, Olga Kazan, is from Russia and she grew up in the south of America. So that's a very interesting dynamic. So it was a cool read overall and I would really recommend it to anyone, whether you feel like an outsider or not, it hasn't really got anything to do with it as much as it is. Whether you feel like you might think differently and you can contribute in a way to help everyone.

Silvija: Yeah, very cool. So what is the most important thing we've talked about that you really would like people to remember?

Johan: The most important thing. I think it's a theme along which a lot of the work that we're doing kind of carries through some of the questions you have today. And we didn't directly necessarily touch on it, but I feel like this thing always comes across where we have to talk about a hunger for risk. I think in a time that we are now, we saw through the period of COVID how things could change rapidly and how people could actually work from home and be trusted, and how maybe there's a dual model that works with some companies or the tech that we use could help us actually scale through a time of uncertainty. But that will not be successful if you are so risk averse that you can't allow yourself to experiment, to explore and to be adventurous. So I think the most important thing for me from what we spoke about today would be to touch on the ideas that the challenges come with risk. And if you want to really say you're innovative, embrace the challenges and embrace the risk. These are large corporations that are involved. And even though there's a responsibility towards the budgets that are being maintained, there is also a responsibility to be innovative in a time where if you left out, it could have a greater impact on not only things like your internal revenue models, but also the climate and also the people that you're trying to engage with outside your customers. So for me, that's the one.

Silvija: Take the risk. The Nordic model perhaps makes the pill a little sweeter with all the with all the kind of compensating mechanisms that it actually has. I wanted to go back to just one thing that you said, now you're developing a platform where you are much more lean and agile and you fail fast. And it reminded me of a quote by Churchill who said that success is nothing else than being able to go from failure to failure without the loss of enthusiasm. And I love that quote because also entrepreneurship and building of anything new sometimes, it just feels like you're encountering problems and you're solving them just to find another problem. And that's that kind of failure to failure. But really, when you're doing something new, you can't expect this to be a set of predictable steps. You have to try and fail, but you're moving ahead and it's about surviving for long enough to get somewhere really interesting.

Johan:  I agree. And I think this relates a little bit, another book that I could recommend, although it’s not your typical book to recommend in the world of business, I suppose. But what you're saying now reminds me of The Alchemist by Paulo Colon. And the reason is what you're saying about having kind of that attitude and indifference that what a lot of people refer to as grit is about what that book is is kind of in part selling, right? The idea that you have to have a measure like a measure of irrational faith in your idea. And this isn't a time where we have to capitalize on events that are beyond our control. And if you’re in the founding state of a company or even if you're scaling up and you meet these challenges, there will be things outside of your control. There will be things that's challenging, but that's up to you to stick with the positivity and understand that even though you will be rational in your actions, it will be required to have a rational faith. And I think that's a really interesting thing in the world I've found, is that having faith in your idea is not to be taken lightly. So that's something at least that I would add in that flow of thought.

Silvija:  Very cool. Well, Johan Bronckhorst. Thank you so very much for this inspirational and educational conversation.

Johan: Thank you so much. So it's been a real pleasure. And I'm really looking forward to seeing how all of this will develop. The Nordic model is, I think, in a really interesting state. So I've been glad to be a part of this.

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