Velkommen til LØRN.Tech - en læringsdugnad om teknologi og samfunn med Silvija Seres og venner.

Silvija Seres: Hello and welcome to a podcast series that LØRN is doing together with the school NKI. This is a series of four conversations about the future of styling of our homes and interior design, driven both by technology and sustainability needs. Today with me I have Anya Bisgaard and Sølvi Fjeldstad. I would very much like you ladies to introduce yourselves to our students and our audience. Maybe we can start with Sølvi. Sølvi Who are you?

Sølvi Marie Fjeldstad: Who am I? Yeah, I am a teacher at NKI interior design and "boligstyling''. And actually, I just started that when the pandemic entered, because I am an interior architect and I run my own company. And when the pandemic came, all the offices closed down and everyone got into home offices. So my work wasn't needed right then. So I called NKI and I said, Do you need any teachers? And the students were still there. And digital, which is good. So here I am. And I can throw in a fun fact. Interior design and the world champion in whitewater rafting. Several times. Doesn't have much to do with interior design, but still it does because it has brought me around the world to different cultures and also a lot of nature.

Silvija: Yeah. Does that bring you to use more natural inspiration in the way that you think of interior design or how do you think it has changed the way that you work?

Sølvi: Yeah, nature has always been with me and I have also worked as a river rafting guide for many, many years, which means I have been having outdoor kitchens cooking for up to 50 people. So yes, I do bring a lot in and you have to work differently and it gives you a different perspective.

Silvija: Hmm. Very cool. I love a quote by Winston Churchill that says, First we build our buildings and then they build us. And I think that it goes both ways and probably also bringing in the minimalism that you that you have to work with when you are a river rafting guide, etc., into, for example, the way we think about offices, think about the flows, think about the risk management probably has a lot of really interesting connections.

Sølvi: Yeah, definitely.

Silvija: Yeah, we'll discuss this in more depth very soon. But we have another guest Anja Bisgaard from spot design. Who are you?

Anja Bisgaard: Yes, hi. I am Anja Bisgaard and I run Spot Trends and business here in Denmark. Actually, I have my little American accent from being an exchange student in the US way back. It's been 25 years now. So that one kind of got stuck and would have been useful. Also, because I have an international perspective with the clients that I also work with, both internationally and Danish and Scandinavian clients. And what I do for them is helping them turn trends into business, looking at trends and understanding trends, help them navigate which trends make business, because there's a lot of trends out there and there's a lot of trends that is just hot air that doesn't necessarily manifest itself into actually business and return on investment. So that's what I've been doing for the past eight years. I have an education within communications, actually a master's degree in communications where I specialized and experienced economy and consumer behavior and linked that into lifestyle, both interiors and fashion. And that has led me to now running about trends and business. I can't say that I have such an impressive, fun fact that usually I am not world champion in anything. I think what I did mostly was win the Jutland Championship in handball when I was 12 years old. So that's not a big fun fact for me. It doesn't go into sports, but usually when people think of Trend Spotter or something or someone that I work with in the line that I work with, you know, they usually think that I have to live in Copenhagen in a very urban area and, you know, travel the whole world. But reality is different. I live in the middle of wetlands near lakes and forests in an ordinary house with my two children. But it really gives me a sense of the common people. And that is one of my UPS in my business is that knowing what is going on with common people, with ordinary people, people just walking down the street really gives you more insight than just knowing what is new as a trend, in my opinion. So a fun fact is, as a trend spotter, I don't live in Copenhagen, but it's only 3 hours away. So I visited all the time, you know, to get the new things. But I think it's easier to do that and do the other way around to get the feeling of the common people. You need to be around the common people.

Silvija: Yes, Sølvi?

Sølvi: Yeah, that's actually great that you address this because we have students and they live in the city, some live really remote and they all want to study interior design. They all want to know how to look at trends and how to put it into their work. So I think that's a very good thing for them to hear.

Silvija: I also think that. Kind of checking that those trends apply not only to the biggest cities and the most international metropolises, but actually to people's lives, I think. And that's where often. I think, for example, if we try to understand the US, many of us simply can't understand how Trump can win. But I think it's because we only look at a few spots, maybe, you know, the New York and Silicon Valley elites, and we don't see the real life and the real world. And that's where you are. And that's what we are trying to discuss now. Also, how does extreme change in the world around us manifest itself in the way that we should be thinking when we design our spaces for living? And so, Sølvi, you're an interior designer, and I would like to actually start with asking you, how does a good interior designer work?

Sølvi: Mentally or in practice?

Silvija: Mentally and in practice and maybe even what's the difference between styling of apartments or houses and interior design?

Sølvi: Yeah, right. Well, I think it overlaps, and that's why there are no shielded titles within. Are you an interior architect or an interior designer or are you a stylist or decorator? I remember when I started to study, people would look at us as pillow fluffers, you know, And things have changed in these, what, over 20 years. Interior designers are now being contacted all the time by the common people and 10-15 years ago, it wasn't as usual for the man in the street to call an interior architect or interior designer to get some help. But basically, it all happens too. Like Anja says, she has a master degree in communication and this is communication. And I think that the reason why people now contact us is that the flow of information is now so open for everyone. You have the Internet. The world is big, but it's small. So people have so much information that they don't know how to make choices. And that's kind of where we come in.

Silvija: So great. Søvi, not pillow floppers, but perhaps almost psychologists trying to understand the potential of a space and the needs of the person that's going to use this space, right?

Sølvi: Yeah, definitely. And it's a big difference if you are if your client is a private person and the family and sometimes you actually get into their bedrooms and you look into their drawers, you know. If it's a company, it's kind of different because it's easier to tell the people in charge there that this is what you need to do and this is how you can brand yourself. But how do you brand your family? You know? It's very personal. So it's a different approach. So, yes, and also a husband and a wife are not always agreeing on what it should be. So you need to kind of find the middle way and help them navigate through that.

Silvija: And I think this is a really interesting perspective on it as well, because I think, you know, one thing is who are you as a family, as even as a person maybe? But the other is, who would you like to be and how can this face help move you there? And then, you know, the world is not static. And this is where we need to bring in Anja now, even just the last two years and the pandemics have changed our needs related, for example to our home spaces. And also have changed the need that schools have with their interior design or offices. All the offices are probably moving from being spaces where you sit behind your screen and type away in peace and quiet to a space where you are collaborating with people. Maybe the canteen and the lunch space is going to be the most important reason for going to work in the future, right? So I think we need to find a way to apply these trends in a quick and flexible and maybe culturally aware manner. So, Anja, what do you think are the most important forces driving this change?

Anja: Well, of course, digitalisation is one of them. But what I got to think about when you asked the question is that we also really it's really important to distinguish markets. Because of my research all the way through the pandemic and corona and the changes that are there, the degree of urbanization in different markets really determines how different we are. Interior designing our spaces, both the offices, both our homes, both the more urban city landscape as well. And in Scandinavia, we are not that urbanized as we are in other markets. Just take Germany, just take London and England and France and anywhere else where we are high, have a higher volume of population. What I would call in Scandinavia, Sweden is the highest urbanized area that we have in comparison to actually how many people live in the urban areas. And in Denmark, Copenhagen is 1 million people. I mean, it's just a small city in other countries. And so we are actually talking about provincial urbanization. And that has a big impact on the different changes that we're seeing. Post-corona is actually going to have an effect. So it matters how long, for instance, you have to drive to your office, whether you are pushing for more at home, work from home, or if you're still going to go back to the office. And definitely the direction in Denmark, I can see that most people are still going back to the offices and the changes are even though we thought very big changes would happen, it is not that big after all. I can see more in the UK. There has been a big push for more work from home and that of course has a huge impact on what is the role of the offices when you go there. Is it a more socially oriented perspective? And Vitra is a very good example of looking into how office design in highly urbanized areas is supposed to look like. They called it the club office, and that was a big concept they came out with last year where they exactly looked at spaces with a completely different perspective of having a lounge area, of having a soft seating area where you can do soft greetings, for example, if you have to delve into that. Informal meetings over a bar counter, for example, was also something that they talked about, and that is because they see that in the highly urbanized areas, the offices take up a new role. And I've also been talking about that. We're looking into our first, second and third space. Our first space is our home. Our second space is our work. And our third spaces are all the places out there restaurants, movie theaters, gym halls and everywhere. That's like our third space. And there has been a big change also in how we use these third spaces. And the fourth crisis coming in now with inflation is still impacting, for example, retail and the urban cityscape. So basically saying it's about also looking into the markets of how big these changes are. But digitalization is, of course, creating another level of where we are and where we look into. But there are big differences that you need to take into consideration when working as an interior designer.

Silvija: I want to give you ladies two examples that maybe you can comment on. So in Oslo, we have built amazing stuff in the last few years, the whole length of the Akerselva, the river. That was maybe ten years ago. It has been converted into a new bohemian, creative, corporate educational space. But then also the whole area around the harbor has been reunified and completely free. And there is a new library called Deichmans, the New Big Deichmans library next to the opera. And I was there a few months ago for the first time. And I was shocked by how wonderfully designed the interior was. It's actually a continuation of a story that I think starts probably with the new opera in Oslo, which has this inside out perspective where, you know, you enjoy walking on the roof of the opera and you bring the normal, everyday people on top of high art. And then with Deichman, it's almost like walking into - what's the English word for it? Maurtue? Anthill. You know, and there are all these lines and elevators and stairs taking you everywhere. It's just buzzing with people, with children who are doing something related to knowledge and books. And it's very informal, it's very dynamic. And it is a wonderful example of this third space, which we really need more of because I'm a big fan of somebody called Art Voss, who has been writing about these third spaces. And, you know, in the lack of the church and the marketplace being the places where we always go and always gather, we need to create these third spaces. And the pandemic has maybe made that need even more visible.

Sølvi: Yeah, definitely. And it's interesting because I was thinking, Anja, - I'll do an example, because I think this is really interesting as far as you know, you talked about. The lounges and the more laid back situations and need for designing like offices where you can work differently. But in fact, as far as my experience right now is that I can do drawings for this and they can want it and everything, and then they'll make it. And then they'll come back half a year later and they want to redo because they don't use the lounge. And I'm thinking they should, you know, but all of a sudden they throw it back in, we want more seats and we want more regular desks here instead of the softness of because people are not sitting there and I'm like, okay. Is it my design that didn't work or aren't they mentally there yet? You know?

Silvija:  Can I comment? Because I think culture change takes time.

Sølvi: Yeah.

Silvija: And, you know, you need to kind of guide them there with colors and with materials and with the flows. But I think eventually it takes time to work differently. And we, we yeah, that's, that's I guess a slow process. But my impression is that you're doing exactly the right influencing work that you should be doing.

Anja: I think also it's about expecting people to do the exact same things when they come into the office. I mean, the whole point behind Vitra is that you're not there every day and not doing the exact same things. You don't fulfill the same tasks at this Vitra office. But I think what people or office owners maybe do wrong is that they expect people to do the exact same kind of work when they then come in to these new interior designs instead of saying, okay, what kind of work are you actually having to do during the week in case you have to do in-depth work? Maybe it's better to do it at home, plan your your meetings when we so we can use these lounge areas to these more informal talks, blah, blah, blah, and go into understanding that the workforce and the offices point is not the exact same thing, but habits are so difficult to break. It takes so much time and that is why we bring in the old habits in these new interior settings, because that's where we see the trends are going. But we are not matching those two things. So I think that's where the chain stops off, so to speak.

Silvija: I very, very much agree with you on Anja.I want to give you guys two examples. One is a co-working space in Oslo called Rebel. And it's an amazing set of offices with very interesting, very different meeting rooms, lots of both auditoriums, but where people can also work together, impromptu lectures, great canteen, etc.. And the interesting thing is that often when you design an office space, people want to know about the materials and the colors. And they say here they have a very standardized set of offices, very standardized, actual set of colors, etc.. What people really care about is what's in the walls and how are they going to manage the access rights to all of these different rooms through a good app that lets you be where you should be and not everywhere else. So it's this new way of using a flexible way of using spaces that I think was for me really interesting and digital infrastructure being just as important as the physical infrastructure. That was the Rebell case for me. And there is another case that I want to mention, and it goes back six or seven years. I was on the board of Eidsiva, the energy company in Norway, and we were in the energy company, but they have one of their daughter companies called Eidsiva Bredbånd. It's a network company and a very visionary CEO, and he took us through the offices in I think it is in Lillehammer. And here he designed the complete set of offices for this broadband company so that he would make people work more like what you're trying to do with your designs, Sølvi. He made these small meeting rooms, you know, the boxes. I don't know. He made these really well, sound isolated little pods or whatever they are called, lots of lots of different spaces. There was a library suddenly, you know, with small desks, with a library you could talk in. There were places where you could sit alone and work in peace. He used colors. So he's trying to change the culture. But you also have to change maybe even the organizational structure. When you do a change in interior design. And I think you need a really brave leadership and a very determined HR Person for this. Sølvi?

Sølvi: Yeah. Just want to throw in with the pods because they are a lot more common now because business owners, they will see that the new way of working with open seating and you don't have your own seat. That means that they can have smaller spaces, less rent, and they can put in these little pods if you need to go and take a phone call. Right. So the fun thing is that I think it was in - It's at least 14 years ago, I think. Time flies. This Norwegian entrepreneur contacted my company and he said, I have a vision for these pods and that technology and everything is great and it's all done. But now we need to show them off in this big fair in Sweden. We need to show them off and it needs to be a little spectacular. So can you help us design what they should look like and pick out the colors for the interiors and the decorations and the outside and everything? And for us, it was like two people really wanted to walk into that little pod because it was different sizes, but one was really small. So my partner at the time, she had been an art director working for commercials before she went into Interior and we were looking at it and all of a sudden we go, okay, it actually needs to look like an old fashioned English phone booth. Yeah. So we made it look like the old fashioned English phone booth on the outside. So because that is something people can relate to, right? So they can. Yeah. I dared to go into a phone booth to make a call, so I'll go into the phone booth, my call, instead of thinking, Oh, my God, that's such a small space. I'm not going to go in there. So that was really fun, you know?

Silvija: But I think. It's also really inspiring how you use also a little bit of humor, you know, to make some of these transitions a little less scary and easier to relate to. Anja has a lot to say also on the whole value chain, how this is really an ecosystem thing that needs to happen and how the sustainability of that value chain is a very important factor here. But Anja, can you just give us a couple of sentences on that and we'll go more into depth when we go to our third conversation on that topic.

Anja: Yes. What I mean, a little bit about trends looking into the value chain of that is that trend starts for my clients and for designers and suppliers. It really starts very much, very much back into the value chain. And yet then it actually has to start also very much in the forefront of the value chain, where with people who were actually supposed to purchase these different trends and products that are out there. So that is what I work with in terms of understanding both the very beginning of the value chain and the very end of the value chain and get those two things to actually match. So to say, okay, I am maybe spotting a new trend and who will actually purchase that trend. Towards the end, the consumer in the other way, or let's say the client of a house who is looking to have a specific interior design as that is our topic here. And sustainability is a point also that needs to be worked on within the value chain. And it is both in terms of who will actually purchase it, if it's the forefront, if it's a very highly communicative element in a product, then we need a certain kind of consumer. But in other hands, it also needs to be worked on with everybody because we cannot rely on the consumers to actually be the ones making these sustainable choices. If that had happened, it would have happened ten years ago. But for now we're seeing that designers and suppliers and product developers within lifestyle and interior, they definitely need to address this topic and start very early on in the value chain and not just rely on the end consumers being the ones who make that choice of sustainability. And in that sense, we also see that legislation is coming in, making it completely imperative to actually even have a company or being able to produce things today. I think that what we're going to see with sustainability is that it's going to be standards, just like toys have been, just like beauty have been. There's going to be some standards, elements that brands and companies and product developers will have to live up to. And in that case, it's imperative to even run a business in the future.

Silvija: Very cool. We'll get back to this when we talk in our third conversation. In the respect of time, we're going to stop our first lecture here and meet in a very few moments to continue our conversation with Focus then on the people and environment and society. Thank you so much.

Sølvi: Thank you.

Anja: Thank you. My pleasure.

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